Four Corners ABC 27 Jul 09 and Aerospace Aviation
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Hi,
here are the requirements for an RTO's teaching staff taken from "Standards for Registered Training Organisations" - Australian Quality Training Framework - Australian National Training Authority (ANTA) dated 2001. I only have access to these at the moment they may have been updated.
If the organisation is registered under the Australian Quality Training Framework (AQTF) then they are an RTO and these standards apply.
Hope this makes things clear.
Tinkicker
here are the requirements for an RTO's teaching staff taken from "Standards for Registered Training Organisations" - Australian Quality Training Framework - Australian National Training Authority (ANTA) dated 2001. I only have access to these at the moment they may have been updated.
7 The competence of RTO staff
Each member of the RTO's staff who is involved in training, assessment or client service is competent for the functions they perform.
7.1 The RTO must develop and implement written procedures for the recruitment, induction, and ongoing development of each member of its staff who is involved in training, assessment or client service; encourage and provide relevant opportunities for their professional development; and monitor their performance.
7.2 The RTO’s induction program and materials for new staff must contain information, where relevant to their job role, on each of the following:
i Training Packages;
ii competency-based training and assessment;
iii vocational education and training requirements and policies; and
iv requirements for New Apprenticeships/Traineeships.
7.3 a The RTO must ensure that assessments are conducted by a person who has:
i the following competencies from the Training Package for Assessment and Workplace Training, or demonstrated equivalent competencies:
a BSZ401A Plan Assessment;
b BSZ402A Conduct Assessment;
c BSZ403A Review Assessment; and
ii relevant vocational competencies, at least to the level being assessed.
b However, if a person does not have all of the competencies in Standards 7.3 a (i) and 7.3 a (ii), one person with the competencies listed in Standard 7.3 a (i), and one or more persons who have the competencies listed in Standard 7.3 a (ii) may work together to conduct assessments.
7.4 The RTO must ensure that training is delivered by a person who:
i has all the competencies in the Certificate IV from the Training Package for Assessment and Workplace Training (or has demonstrated the equivalent competencies) or who is under the direct supervision* of a person with these competencies; and
ii is able to demonstrate vocational competencies at least to the level of those being delivered.
*Direct supervision is achieved when a person delivering training on behalf of the RTO has regular guidance, support and direction from a person designated by the RTO who has the competencies in Standard 7.4 (i) and who monitors and is accountable for the training delivery. It is not necessary for the supervising person to be present during all training delivery.
Each member of the RTO's staff who is involved in training, assessment or client service is competent for the functions they perform.
7.1 The RTO must develop and implement written procedures for the recruitment, induction, and ongoing development of each member of its staff who is involved in training, assessment or client service; encourage and provide relevant opportunities for their professional development; and monitor their performance.
7.2 The RTO’s induction program and materials for new staff must contain information, where relevant to their job role, on each of the following:
i Training Packages;
ii competency-based training and assessment;
iii vocational education and training requirements and policies; and
iv requirements for New Apprenticeships/Traineeships.
7.3 a The RTO must ensure that assessments are conducted by a person who has:
i the following competencies from the Training Package for Assessment and Workplace Training, or demonstrated equivalent competencies:
a BSZ401A Plan Assessment;
b BSZ402A Conduct Assessment;
c BSZ403A Review Assessment; and
ii relevant vocational competencies, at least to the level being assessed.
b However, if a person does not have all of the competencies in Standards 7.3 a (i) and 7.3 a (ii), one person with the competencies listed in Standard 7.3 a (i), and one or more persons who have the competencies listed in Standard 7.3 a (ii) may work together to conduct assessments.
7.4 The RTO must ensure that training is delivered by a person who:
i has all the competencies in the Certificate IV from the Training Package for Assessment and Workplace Training (or has demonstrated the equivalent competencies) or who is under the direct supervision* of a person with these competencies; and
ii is able to demonstrate vocational competencies at least to the level of those being delivered.
*Direct supervision is achieved when a person delivering training on behalf of the RTO has regular guidance, support and direction from a person designated by the RTO who has the competencies in Standard 7.4 (i) and who monitors and is accountable for the training delivery. It is not necessary for the supervising person to be present during all training delivery.
Hope this makes things clear.
Tinkicker
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I am a flight instructor in bankstown and I am also conducting academic research on overseas students attending flight training in oz. It would be great to chat to some instructors or educators about their experience and contribute to this study.
anyone interested please let me know
cheers
joe
anyone interested please let me know
cheers
joe
Does aerospace charge 5k per month to have the students enrolled there?
If so, even if you were not flying I could see how their 40 odd K disappeared rather quickly and how they did not end up with the required 200TT.
We all know what flight training is like, CX flights due to weather, instructors duty times running low (particularly trying to complete a NVFR), aeroplane unservicabilities and of course errors from operations in your bookings. I remember just trying to get my CPL flight test booked was a chore and then after my pre licence I had to wait two months for the test after which I was a little rusty when the time came to fly, although thankfully I passed.
I would say where there is smoke there is fire, however I also know how international students are to work with and they can be a chore. We all know what dealing with foreign call centres are like especially if they are giving tech support, they can read off a list but cannot think and diagnose problems laterally. Aviation requires lateral thinking, not wrote learning. It's not that these foreign students are incapable of lateral thinking, they have just never had the need to learn it along with never being encouraged to do so. Therein lies a major problem in getting one up to the standard required to pass a CPL flight test.
I have heard ATO's in the past passing students as they are obligated to by the flying school system with a verbal condition that they are never to exercise the privileges of their licence under their Australian licence in Australian airspace.
That to me rings alarm bells.
I've never worked as an instructor for Aerospace Aviation and anything I have said here is speculative and rumour not fact, and is not intended for any media organization to use in their coverage in relation to the issue at hand
Safe flying Peeps
If so, even if you were not flying I could see how their 40 odd K disappeared rather quickly and how they did not end up with the required 200TT.
We all know what flight training is like, CX flights due to weather, instructors duty times running low (particularly trying to complete a NVFR), aeroplane unservicabilities and of course errors from operations in your bookings. I remember just trying to get my CPL flight test booked was a chore and then after my pre licence I had to wait two months for the test after which I was a little rusty when the time came to fly, although thankfully I passed.
I would say where there is smoke there is fire, however I also know how international students are to work with and they can be a chore. We all know what dealing with foreign call centres are like especially if they are giving tech support, they can read off a list but cannot think and diagnose problems laterally. Aviation requires lateral thinking, not wrote learning. It's not that these foreign students are incapable of lateral thinking, they have just never had the need to learn it along with never being encouraged to do so. Therein lies a major problem in getting one up to the standard required to pass a CPL flight test.
I have heard ATO's in the past passing students as they are obligated to by the flying school system with a verbal condition that they are never to exercise the privileges of their licence under their Australian licence in Australian airspace.
That to me rings alarm bells.
I've never worked as an instructor for Aerospace Aviation and anything I have said here is speculative and rumour not fact, and is not intended for any media organization to use in their coverage in relation to the issue at hand
Safe flying Peeps
ATO's obligated to pass students????? god help us.
Like any educational course you pay your fees and you either do the work and pass or fail. Cant buy a degree or a CPL for that matter.
That said if there is evidence of misconduct it should be investigated and people made acocuntable.
Like any educational course you pay your fees and you either do the work and pass or fail. Cant buy a degree or a CPL for that matter.
That said if there is evidence of misconduct it should be investigated and people made acocuntable.
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Cant buy a degree or a CPL for that matter.
I recently finished a postgrad course and was amazed to see emails from the course convenor to all students about how rampant plagiarism was discouraged. Apparently various foriegn course participants had been buying their assignments or plagiarizing from textbooks, which would lead to automatic exclusion ten years ago. These days, it's worth a gentle reprimand and you still get a pass. Why? The international students pay far more than domestic students, and it all goes to the University coffers.
Education/training is a business these days. Nothing about achievement or imparting knowledge. Even the universities operate like this, so Heaven help the smaller operators.
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Education/training is a business these days. Nothing about achievement or imparting knowledge. Even the universities operate like this, so Heaven help the smaller operators.
Me thinks that from time to time commercial decisions prevail!
Max
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Cert IV in TAA
Just an interesting note on qualifications of instructors in an RTO. Different states have different requirements however in Queensland I know that it is not a requirement that all staff have the TAA or BSZ qualification. The assessors that give the final qualification must have it and must supervise/assess/train the skilled professionals that deliver the training and assure that the training provided is at the appropriate standard.
Using this logic, the instructors that do the training do not require it and although it is a “recommendation” it is still not a requirement. It would be interesting to see what the NSW regulations state on this matter though… shame it’s not standard for all states…
As a side note, the cert IV in aviation is not worth the paper it is written on. Unfortunately since it is not technically linked to CASA in anything but name it means if an RTO chose to they would be able to complete the entire course without ever having the student sit a CASA exam…. Thus no licence just a piece of paper…..
Will be great one day when the two departments work it out…
Using this logic, the instructors that do the training do not require it and although it is a “recommendation” it is still not a requirement. It would be interesting to see what the NSW regulations state on this matter though… shame it’s not standard for all states…
As a side note, the cert IV in aviation is not worth the paper it is written on. Unfortunately since it is not technically linked to CASA in anything but name it means if an RTO chose to they would be able to complete the entire course without ever having the student sit a CASA exam…. Thus no licence just a piece of paper…..
Will be great one day when the two departments work it out…
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I Flew at AA. Would a Cert IV instructor need to be "signed out" by a more senior instructor. My memory is that many of the instructors I went up into the Circuit and training area with needed to be signed out first. Many times we could not leave because no instructors where around to sign us out.
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Jhurditch,
If you were flying with a junior grade 3 flying instructor, that instructor would have required to be under direct supervision of a grade 1 instructor, who needs to be at the school in order to supervise. It doesnt have anything to do with having or not hving a Cert IV.
Mo
If you were flying with a junior grade 3 flying instructor, that instructor would have required to be under direct supervision of a grade 1 instructor, who needs to be at the school in order to supervise. It doesnt have anything to do with having or not hving a Cert IV.
Mo
I think what he is referring to Capt Mo ..
"has all the competencies in the Certificate IV from the Training Package for Assessment and Workplace Training (or has demonstrated the equivalent competencies) or who is under the direct supervision* of a person with these competencies; and"
Is that.
"has all the competencies in the Certificate IV from the Training Package for Assessment and Workplace Training (or has demonstrated the equivalent competencies) or who is under the direct supervision* of a person with these competencies; and"
Is that.
Just to clarify
Grade 1/2/3 Instructor Rating is required to teach people how to fly.
Cert IV is a Vocational Course (can be done at TAFE by anyone) which all instructors are required to complete for the school to have VETAB approval.
It has nothing to do with teaching people to fly, it is only necessary to get VETAB approval.
Thats my understanding anyway.
Grade 1/2/3 Instructor Rating is required to teach people how to fly.
Cert IV is a Vocational Course (can be done at TAFE by anyone) which all instructors are required to complete for the school to have VETAB approval.
It has nothing to do with teaching people to fly, it is only necessary to get VETAB approval.
Thats my understanding anyway.
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Aerospace
Date: Sunday, January 14, 2007, 10:48 AM
The direct students from the Advisement have be taken
by Aerospace directly by Aerospace without informing
us.
Now I know why Sue has not put my name on your website
you both had evil intentions.
8, We have reported that the aircraft you will use for
training are not maintained properly and Auto Pilot etc do
not work since 2005 . You have also promised to
install RMI and HSI in the Aircraft but failed to do
so far . The cadets will be flying glass cockpits in INDIA
so the training on this A/c which cannot do dme arc ,
vor holds etc will be a waist of money for them .You
are also refusing to give training in the Duchess
which is a complex airplane even though you offers
says it.
9,We have already reported the Human Right violation
done by your Instructor Mr Richard and have more than
25 ex students who will sign for it . How can you do
CRM when your instructors think they are Superior
humans because of their Color ? KFA is owned by Dr
Vijay Mallaya who is a proud Indian and will not like
if your Instructors address their Cadets as "Bloody
Indians" and " You are the worst Race i have ever
Seen"
Thease guys are paying you , you must make sure
Richard is out of your School.Last month he took a
bottle of wine to pass a guy who has come from Haryan
to Aerospace to get his multi eng rating.Your
instructors can sell their integrity for a bottle of
wine??
10,We have also saved Aerospace twice from getting
Blacklisted By DGCA since Mescos were to file a report
about your school there and we gave you free legal
advice when the article was published against you .
11, AUSTRALIAN GROUND :- ground
subjects.The course books were given to us because at
that time your only ground instructor has resigned and
you have had no way of teaching the cadets.When ever
we tried to save you by helping you , you turned
against us and stabbed us on out back.
12, you and your
wife are cheating INDIAN students since 1992.
The day you were in INDIA i told you that your 152 has
crashed you tried to keep the news away from me.
13, We can even get a stay order against you to take
any student from India .. I think a team from INDIAN DGCA should go to
Aerospace on a fact
finding mission and should be allowed to talk to the
Indian student there.
14, We have already reported this you your High
Commissioner in Bombay who has advised us he will not
recommend your School to anyone else in INDIA.
16, Ball is in your court. Zane please note i will be
the last INDIAN you have tried to cheat.I will go to
each ex Aerospce student and have a signature campain
against you at least one of them will give evedence
against you to DGCA.You have not refunded a single $
to anyone so far but your website says that you will
give 10% back to them if they pay the entire fees at
once.Once they reach Sue theretens that she will
deport them if they open their mouth . You are sweet
to people tillthey pay you the first instalment when
they reach there they have to take an appointment to
talk to Sue some of the multi engine guys come back
without meeting her even once.
19, you are used to shortcuts Not we!
we will make sure thay get the complete ground
training than you
can log anyting ( Day flying as Night ) you want when
they come to you .
I have lost a year of my life with Aerospace but i am
a free man now who can start from scrach again and
beat you because i have integrity and we feel these
cadets are future of Indian Aviation and not some
commodity like you treat them.
You husband and wife team are evil and you are to be
stopped!
The direct students from the Advisement have be taken
by Aerospace directly by Aerospace without informing
us.
Now I know why Sue has not put my name on your website
you both had evil intentions.
8, We have reported that the aircraft you will use for
training are not maintained properly and Auto Pilot etc do
not work since 2005 . You have also promised to
install RMI and HSI in the Aircraft but failed to do
so far . The cadets will be flying glass cockpits in INDIA
so the training on this A/c which cannot do dme arc ,
vor holds etc will be a waist of money for them .You
are also refusing to give training in the Duchess
which is a complex airplane even though you offers
says it.
9,We have already reported the Human Right violation
done by your Instructor Mr Richard and have more than
25 ex students who will sign for it . How can you do
CRM when your instructors think they are Superior
humans because of their Color ? KFA is owned by Dr
Vijay Mallaya who is a proud Indian and will not like
if your Instructors address their Cadets as "Bloody
Indians" and " You are the worst Race i have ever
Seen"
Thease guys are paying you , you must make sure
Richard is out of your School.Last month he took a
bottle of wine to pass a guy who has come from Haryan
to Aerospace to get his multi eng rating.Your
instructors can sell their integrity for a bottle of
wine??
10,We have also saved Aerospace twice from getting
Blacklisted By DGCA since Mescos were to file a report
about your school there and we gave you free legal
advice when the article was published against you .
11, AUSTRALIAN GROUND :- ground
subjects.The course books were given to us because at
that time your only ground instructor has resigned and
you have had no way of teaching the cadets.When ever
we tried to save you by helping you , you turned
against us and stabbed us on out back.
12, you and your
wife are cheating INDIAN students since 1992.
The day you were in INDIA i told you that your 152 has
crashed you tried to keep the news away from me.
13, We can even get a stay order against you to take
any student from India .. I think a team from INDIAN DGCA should go to
Aerospace on a fact
finding mission and should be allowed to talk to the
Indian student there.
14, We have already reported this you your High
Commissioner in Bombay who has advised us he will not
recommend your School to anyone else in INDIA.
16, Ball is in your court. Zane please note i will be
the last INDIAN you have tried to cheat.I will go to
each ex Aerospce student and have a signature campain
against you at least one of them will give evedence
against you to DGCA.You have not refunded a single $
to anyone so far but your website says that you will
give 10% back to them if they pay the entire fees at
once.Once they reach Sue theretens that she will
deport them if they open their mouth . You are sweet
to people tillthey pay you the first instalment when
they reach there they have to take an appointment to
talk to Sue some of the multi engine guys come back
without meeting her even once.
19, you are used to shortcuts Not we!
we will make sure thay get the complete ground
training than you
can log anyting ( Day flying as Night ) you want when
they come to you .
I have lost a year of my life with Aerospace but i am
a free man now who can start from scrach again and
beat you because i have integrity and we feel these
cadets are future of Indian Aviation and not some
commodity like you treat them.
You husband and wife team are evil and you are to be
stopped!
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Well....it's taken me a couple of days to find the time to tangle with Das Uber ( I can hear him panting like a young maiden in anticipation!
)
So here we go.......nope...got nothin'!.
The Green Goblin seemed to sum it up.
Sorry Das Uber
I'll just say this. Aerospace should never have put itself into a position where a bunch of slackers could nail them!!
Good students I could back....but not this bunch of whiners!!
Indians.........dot your Is and cross your Ts. Then there will be no problem.
Here endeth the rant of sorts!!
)So here we go.......nope...got nothin'!.
The Green Goblin seemed to sum it up.
Sorry Das Uber
I'll just say this. Aerospace should never have put itself into a position where a bunch of slackers could nail them!!
Good students I could back....but not this bunch of whiners!!
Indians.........dot your Is and cross your Ts. Then there will be no problem.
Here endeth the rant of sorts!!
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well do any one know how many students are there at AA? and its a/c's etc?? and talking diligence even I agree some students have and some may not but why dont you take it in a possitive way?
AA used to offer 200hrs and 15hrs sim for AUD43500 (old rate and now its AUD50,000), after just doing abt 120hrs how could the course fee be finished?? ok leave it its finished we are willing to pay extra but AA should show the account statement for AUD43500. Is AA willing to do that?? The answer is no. AA has c-152 10, piper-5, c-172rg 2, p-68 2, 1 duchess. The student used to get 1 booking/week and if its cancelled, he/she has to wait for next week (so think abt the no. of students). There are lots of instructors who left the school because of management. These are only some there are a lot others.
AA used to offer 200hrs and 15hrs sim for AUD43500 (old rate and now its AUD50,000), after just doing abt 120hrs how could the course fee be finished?? ok leave it its finished we are willing to pay extra but AA should show the account statement for AUD43500. Is AA willing to do that?? The answer is no. AA has c-152 10, piper-5, c-172rg 2, p-68 2, 1 duchess. The student used to get 1 booking/week and if its cancelled, he/she has to wait for next week (so think abt the no. of students). There are lots of instructors who left the school because of management. These are only some there are a lot others.