CASA's revised GAAP procedures.
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Sunfish on YMMB:
This afternoon (0330Z) the controller was telling aircraft to go around on 35L twice in succession and the circuit wasn't even busy - he was just trying to get a couple of sitting aircraft away. However, I agree I wouldn't dream of going on the eastern circuit unless I had absolutely no other choice.
What I'm going to try next time is asking for the Western circuit, which seems to be kept a little quieter and seems to take some of the arriving traffic from the East when there is not conflicting traffic arriving from Carrum or Brighton.
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ozbusdriver to answer your question re how often we have 6 in the cct , mon-fri on good wx days it has been not unusual to have 8-10 in Eastern cct, this reflects the international students whereas weekends are mainly local pilots so not nearly as busy.
Remember MB used to only allow around 5-6 in each cct in the 80s and 90s and both ccts were quite busy until the recession hit in early 90s and MB became ghostly quiet.
After almost 2 weeks of operation I have witnessed and been involved in 4 less than desirable t'off/landing clearances which should not have occured and i put down to controller workload associated with the new procedure.
Having all runways requiring clearance to cross adds zero to efficiency , has a measurable negative safety outcome as mentioned above and requires an additional controller to operate SMC.
Thanks for the consultation CASA....
Remember MB used to only allow around 5-6 in each cct in the 80s and 90s and both ccts were quite busy until the recession hit in early 90s and MB became ghostly quiet.
After almost 2 weeks of operation I have witnessed and been involved in 4 less than desirable t'off/landing clearances which should not have occured and i put down to controller workload associated with the new procedure.
Having all runways requiring clearance to cross adds zero to efficiency , has a measurable negative safety outcome as mentioned above and requires an additional controller to operate SMC.
Thanks for the consultation CASA....
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superdimona, you may think you're kidding, but at Archerfield I pay almost 30 bucks for every landing already! Do circuits and it's another charge on top just for grins. That's on top of monthly airport usage/parking charges of $120+, and of course on top of any ASA enroute charges..
Charges at YBAF increase at CPI +5% every year just to make sure there's no growth and in due time everyone just p!sses off and the whole thing can be turned into warehouses
I've not seen a more delinquent abuse and neglect of public infrastructure anywhere, and I though some of the Europeans had got it badly wrong, but they pale in comparison to what they get away with here 
Great unwashed? Haven't seen many of them airside lately. They couldn't afford to go anywhere near a GA outfit, which is why you mostly see foreign sponsored students around GAAP's -- and the bogan racism that is shockingly ubiquitous in this supposedly friendly and relaxed country and with it in the aviation industry is making sure that market is drying up quickly too: Indian student market collapsing | The Australian
All this talk about where GAAP's are and should be going is a little inconsequential methinks, in time the developers and local resident groups and pollies will get their wish and training will be banished to remote areas, and the slow death of the aviation industry in a country that has all the prerequisites to be a leader in the region in flying training and GA will continue
Rant over
Charges at YBAF increase at CPI +5% every year just to make sure there's no growth and in due time everyone just p!sses off and the whole thing can be turned into warehouses
I've not seen a more delinquent abuse and neglect of public infrastructure anywhere, and I though some of the Europeans had got it badly wrong, but they pale in comparison to what they get away with here Great unwashed? Haven't seen many of them airside lately. They couldn't afford to go anywhere near a GA outfit, which is why you mostly see foreign sponsored students around GAAP's -- and the bogan racism that is shockingly ubiquitous in this supposedly friendly and relaxed country and with it in the aviation industry is making sure that market is drying up quickly too: Indian student market collapsing | The Australian
All this talk about where GAAP's are and should be going is a little inconsequential methinks, in time the developers and local resident groups and pollies will get their wish and training will be banished to remote areas, and the slow death of the aviation industry in a country that has all the prerequisites to be a leader in the region in flying training and GA will continue
Rant over
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WEF 0908070800 FLIGHT PROCEDURES YSBK AMD ERSA
FREQUENCY MANAGEMENT NEAR BK CTR TO ENSURE ALL RDO EQPT ACFT ARE ON SAME FREQ (BK TWR) IN VICINITY OF 2RN AND PSP
DEPARTURES: ACFT DEP TO CLASS G AIRSPACE SHALL NOT CHANGE FREQ UNTIL 5NM FM BK CTR BDY
ARRIVALS: ACFT ARRIVING VIA TWRN (S OF 2RN RADIO MAST) AND PSP (NE SHORE PROSPECT RESERVOIR) GAAP APP POINTS MUST CTC BK TWR TWO MINUTES PRIOR WITH EST FOR THE APP POINT
FREQUENCY MANAGEMENT NEAR BK CTR TO ENSURE ALL RDO EQPT ACFT ARE ON SAME FREQ (BK TWR) IN VICINITY OF 2RN AND PSP
DEPARTURES: ACFT DEP TO CLASS G AIRSPACE SHALL NOT CHANGE FREQ UNTIL 5NM FM BK CTR BDY
ARRIVALS: ACFT ARRIVING VIA TWRN (S OF 2RN RADIO MAST) AND PSP (NE SHORE PROSPECT RESERVOIR) GAAP APP POINTS MUST CTC BK TWR TWO MINUTES PRIOR WITH EST FOR THE APP POINT
Has anyone writing these notams drawn a line 5 nm from the boundary (not the AD, btw) and seen what it encompasses ? Good grief ...
Does anyone who's writing these things actually fly in Sydney ? or at all ?
Last edited by Unhinged; 1st Aug 2009 at 11:34.
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Did I read that right? Got to call 2 minutes prior to the approach point to advise you're 2 minutes from the approach point? (roughly 3-4nm from 2RN/Prospect)
Can only hope the tower will realise it's ridiculous and will issue you with your clearance right there and then.
Can only hope the tower will realise it's ridiculous and will issue you with your clearance right there and then.
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settle down dudes,
the notam is only saying to call prior to, and with an est o/h the app point
it's not saying you have to call twice
the notam is only saying to call prior to, and with an est o/h the app point
it's not saying you have to call twice
so, better make sure you have an accurate time piece showing minutes and seconds, next time you venture out to the training area. what's the world coming to?
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The NOTAM might be the towers doing, but the restrictions aren't. We just have to deal with it as best we can.
I believe there have been similar issues at JT with people being told a clearance isn't available.
Our (ATC) rules are we can NOT have more than six in the circuit (both arrivals and departures). So that's what we have to do.
I believe there have been similar issues at JT with people being told a clearance isn't available.
Our (ATC) rules are we can NOT have more than six in the circuit (both arrivals and departures). So that's what we have to do.
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The first call is only to give them an estimate for arriving at the inbound reporting point. It doesn't require a location, altitude or intentions - other than "estimating PSP at 34" Unless the rules are changed further, the second call will still be required to give location, altitude, intentions, atis, etc
Clinton M
The underlying problem is CASA, who in their manifest wisdom, have decreed that an ATCO will only handle 6 aircraft (see post #1 at http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-general-a...ml#post5061824)
The underlying problem is CASA, who in their manifest wisdom, have decreed that an ATCO will only handle 6 aircraft (see post #1 at http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-general-a...ml#post5061824)
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Calling prior to the reporting point sounds like a giant leap forward to me. I could never figure out why we need to call 10 miles out from a CTAF, yet we put aircraft at a precisely defined point and altitude inbound to the busiest airports with no prior call at all! It amazes me that there haven't been more collisions at GAAP reporting points.
As far as 6 aircraft in the circuit goes, the simplest way may be to require the next aircraft to do a full stop and taxi back when someone calls inbound if the circuit is full (and require a full stop from the inbound aircraft).
The general principle should be to give priority to aircraft that will only be in the circuit for a short time.
As far as 6 aircraft in the circuit goes, the simplest way may be to require the next aircraft to do a full stop and taxi back when someone calls inbound if the circuit is full (and require a full stop from the inbound aircraft).
The general principle should be to give priority to aircraft that will only be in the circuit for a short time.
andrewr
Please make sure that you tell the upper management in ASA to change their fee structure. At the moment, in GAAP, each full-stop is charged around $14/tonne.
As far as 6 aircraft in the circuit goes, the simplest way may be to require the next aircraft to do a full stop and taxi back when someone calls inbound if the circuit is full (and require a full stop from the inbound aircraft).
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So can someone tell me about this 2 minutes prior to inbound point call requirement.
If i'm on an IFR plan, on descent into Bankstown from inside CTA, do i have to call the TWR 2 minutes prior to the inbound point?
Half the time on descent into Bankstown coming down the Watle4 arrival at 220kts, we're lucky to get below 3000ft by 2RN, and then get flicked straight to the TWR as we go over the top of the mast.
If there is a hefty westerly blowing, 2 minutes prior to 2RN could be anything up to 10-15NM west of the mast, and still up at around 6-7,000ft (which puts us well inside CTA). I'm sure Sydney Departures are going to be happy if i change freq to BK TWR to give this approaching 2RN call.
If i'm on an IFR plan, on descent into Bankstown from inside CTA, do i have to call the TWR 2 minutes prior to the inbound point?
Half the time on descent into Bankstown coming down the Watle4 arrival at 220kts, we're lucky to get below 3000ft by 2RN, and then get flicked straight to the TWR as we go over the top of the mast.
If there is a hefty westerly blowing, 2 minutes prior to 2RN could be anything up to 10-15NM west of the mast, and still up at around 6-7,000ft (which puts us well inside CTA). I'm sure Sydney Departures are going to be happy if i change freq to BK TWR to give this approaching 2RN call.