Can bush pilots carry/fly handguns?
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I've heard stories of some float pilots (in the US) using firearms for glassy water operations - supposedly to ruffle up the surface to be able to judge their height above the water for a glassy landing. Personally I'd be surprised if anything that you could handle in the cockpit would disturb the surface enough to make a disturbance. I have heard stories of Catalina's using their 50 caliber on auto for that trick.
On a similar vein I usually carry a sharp leatherman when I'm at work (floatplanes) - in conditions of wind across the current it can be the only way to release a mooring. I haven't had one confiscated yet - but I make sure I leave it in the aircraft if I've got to go through screening.
On a similar vein I usually carry a sharp leatherman when I'm at work (floatplanes) - in conditions of wind across the current it can be the only way to release a mooring. I haven't had one confiscated yet - but I make sure I leave it in the aircraft if I've got to go through screening.
Doesn't ANR 119 under CAR 143 imply that you can carry a loaded firearm on CHTR or RPT without CASA permission provided you buy a dangerous animal to go with it? 
Dr
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The 45 has a 15 round stick mag and the 9mm has a choice of 10, 17 or 33 round magazine
I suggest you turn in the magazines to your nearest police station, so some idiot can't get your 9mm with 33 rounds....
Read the NT regs youngster. Nothing is actually "prohibited". What changes is the classification and conditions obtaining to ownership.
By way of example, I am aware of at least one Australian registered charter yacht that legally carries a .50 Cal machine gun.
By way of example, I am aware of at least one Australian registered charter yacht that legally carries a .50 Cal machine gun.
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This has been an interesting thread to review!
Used to be a time I regularly carried shooters/hunters and their weapons in aircraft, transporting them to remote hunting blocks. Bye-and-large, they were a very reasonable, sensible and careful group of people to do business with. There's only one exception that sticks in my mind to this day...
That guy was a member of a party of 5 or 6 I was to drop at a remote beach location for a couple of weeks hunting. All of the party (except this one individual) were happy to comply with my requirement that weapons be disabled with the bolt/firing mechanism surrendered to me for carriage under my seat, and ammunition be packed again separately from the weapon. Just the one guy got busy dancing up-and-down on the spot telling me how many years he had been shooting, all his experience and that what I was asking was bull****... he was a PPL too, it seems. He eventually complied when it was put to him quite forcefully that non-compliance meant no travel -but even that was after considerable ego-stroking by his mates.
When I think back over the years, I have met a few "gun enthusiasts" in a non-aviation related sphere that are people you wouldn't want anywhere near you with a pea-shooter in their possession! I'm sure many of you have met people like them -they buy all their clothing from army surplus stores, even though they have never served in the military, their favourite movies are Rambo's and Terminator's, their only conversation is weapons and what they would do with them... tragically, we are all able to point to the results when some of these people fall off the rails. The Port Arthur's, the Aramoana's; there's not too many days that go by without reading of similar events in the US -or even Melbourne or Sydney these days either. I reckon that's why people -on both sides of the discussion- get a little passionate when weapons and aircraft are the topic.
There's been a lot of sense spoken here. I personally would probably not choose to carry a weapon, unless likely circumstances made that choice foolish; I would probably be quite comfortable with people like longrass carrying a weapon, from what I have seen here. It's "horses for courses" I reckon; you've got to make a decision based on your personal experience, circumstances and (in some cases) judgement of others.
Used to be a time I regularly carried shooters/hunters and their weapons in aircraft, transporting them to remote hunting blocks. Bye-and-large, they were a very reasonable, sensible and careful group of people to do business with. There's only one exception that sticks in my mind to this day...
That guy was a member of a party of 5 or 6 I was to drop at a remote beach location for a couple of weeks hunting. All of the party (except this one individual) were happy to comply with my requirement that weapons be disabled with the bolt/firing mechanism surrendered to me for carriage under my seat, and ammunition be packed again separately from the weapon. Just the one guy got busy dancing up-and-down on the spot telling me how many years he had been shooting, all his experience and that what I was asking was bull****... he was a PPL too, it seems. He eventually complied when it was put to him quite forcefully that non-compliance meant no travel -but even that was after considerable ego-stroking by his mates.
When I think back over the years, I have met a few "gun enthusiasts" in a non-aviation related sphere that are people you wouldn't want anywhere near you with a pea-shooter in their possession! I'm sure many of you have met people like them -they buy all their clothing from army surplus stores, even though they have never served in the military, their favourite movies are Rambo's and Terminator's, their only conversation is weapons and what they would do with them... tragically, we are all able to point to the results when some of these people fall off the rails. The Port Arthur's, the Aramoana's; there's not too many days that go by without reading of similar events in the US -or even Melbourne or Sydney these days either. I reckon that's why people -on both sides of the discussion- get a little passionate when weapons and aircraft are the topic.
There's been a lot of sense spoken here. I personally would probably not choose to carry a weapon, unless likely circumstances made that choice foolish; I would probably be quite comfortable with people like longrass carrying a weapon, from what I have seen here. It's "horses for courses" I reckon; you've got to make a decision based on your personal experience, circumstances and (in some cases) judgement of others.
You'd want one if you were bush flying in PNG, preferably a pump action shotgun. If attacked by raskols you could get several with one blast, accuracy wouldn't be a problem like it would with a handgun.
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RS - Right on... a good post. There are way too many "hunters" and "gun enthusiasts" who should never be issued with anything larger than a chinese toy slingshot, who unfortunately have acquired numerous weapons.
The road signs and other signage you find blasted into scrap metal, are usually the indicators that these types have been around...
There's three things I'd carry into a remote area. Lots of water (who could ever forget Keith Andersons horrible death)... a nice big sharp, robustly-made boning knife... and maybe a rifle if there were crocs or water buffs in the region.
Few people understand how utterly useless handguns are, except at very short range. The TV shows are wrong, it's virtually impossible with a handgun to plug your target at 120 metres, and watch as you hit the bullseye, and the target goes down in a screaming heap. Now, a rifle is a totally different kettle of fish...
Most Australian wildlife doesn't need a weapon to keep it at bay... unless you're unlucky enough to come across a rogue bull who's intent on protecting his cows... or a wild stallion who's looking after his mares.
Mostly, these will prefer to run, anyway, they rarely attack unless hunted and cornered.
Longrass sounds a little too macho to me... you don't need 33 round magazines for anything, unless a horde of screaming VC are over-running your sentry post, and then 33 rounds ain't anywhere near enough...
One carefully placed shot does more damage than 100 wildly-aimed ones... unless one follows American military techniques. I've owned weapons with 50 round magazines, all they do is encourage you to waste ammo.
The road signs and other signage you find blasted into scrap metal, are usually the indicators that these types have been around...
There's three things I'd carry into a remote area. Lots of water (who could ever forget Keith Andersons horrible death)... a nice big sharp, robustly-made boning knife... and maybe a rifle if there were crocs or water buffs in the region.
Few people understand how utterly useless handguns are, except at very short range. The TV shows are wrong, it's virtually impossible with a handgun to plug your target at 120 metres, and watch as you hit the bullseye, and the target goes down in a screaming heap. Now, a rifle is a totally different kettle of fish...
Most Australian wildlife doesn't need a weapon to keep it at bay... unless you're unlucky enough to come across a rogue bull who's intent on protecting his cows... or a wild stallion who's looking after his mares.
Mostly, these will prefer to run, anyway, they rarely attack unless hunted and cornered.
Longrass sounds a little too macho to me... you don't need 33 round magazines for anything, unless a horde of screaming VC are over-running your sentry post, and then 33 rounds ain't anywhere near enough...
One carefully placed shot does more damage than 100 wildly-aimed ones... unless one follows American military techniques. I've owned weapons with 50 round magazines, all they do is encourage you to waste ammo.
Re
"(who could ever forget Keith Andersons horrible death)... "
And the poor guy in the 'Chippie' who missed Forrest....and whose aircraft was subsquently found by 'accident' by a survey aircraft many years later......
Memory is fading....was it Mr W. Knight?
Left his 'diary' scratched on the rudder.
Forget the 'macho' stuff.
Just the EPIRB - plenty of H2O - and the good ole' RFDS Fruit cake in the tin!
And....stay with the 'wreck' - 'tis much easier to see.....
"(who could ever forget Keith Andersons horrible death)... "
And the poor guy in the 'Chippie' who missed Forrest....and whose aircraft was subsquently found by 'accident' by a survey aircraft many years later......
Memory is fading....was it Mr W. Knight?
Left his 'diary' scratched on the rudder.
Forget the 'macho' stuff.
Just the EPIRB - plenty of H2O - and the good ole' RFDS Fruit cake in the tin!
And....stay with the 'wreck' - 'tis much easier to see.....
Alas, the emergency pages of the ERSA are not as good as the old pink section in the VFG...some smartbum has tried to translate the mil survival syllabus into civilian use and have made a hash of it.
Good thing about it...by the time you read all of it and decifer what they are trying to tell you...you will be rescued
Carry water! Make up a survival kit and forget about the handgun!
Good thing about it...by the time you read all of it and decifer what they are trying to tell you...you will be rescued
Carry water! Make up a survival kit and forget about the handgun!
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One quote comes to mind when reading this topic. Was lifted from Alien Versus Predator.
Guns are like condoms. Better to have one and not need it, than it is to need one and not have it.
RS:
..First cousins of the "warrior poets" who occasionally found their way into infantry recruit training. They usually lasted a few months until they went into the bush for the first time. I always remember a naked one, sitting on the barracks roof at S Block, Pukka, at night, rifle in hand, crying his eyes out.
I can throw a Browning 9mm more accurately than I can shoot one. My shotgun and hunting rifles always seem to be locked in the gun safe when the snake comes out from under the house or the Sambur deer appears.
Having traveled from Burketown by road to Roper bar via the coast and fished for Barra in the Nicholson avec crocs, if I was a pilot traversing that country regularly, I think a handgun would be comforting, along with a lot of water. I wouldn't like to be injured with Dingos around either.
When I think back over the years, I have met a few "gun enthusiasts" in a non-aviation related sphere that are people you wouldn't want anywhere near you with a pea-shooter in their possession! I'm sure many of you have met people like them -they buy all their clothing from army surplus stores, even though they have never served in the military, their favourite movies are Rambo's and Terminator's, their only conversation is weapons and what they would do with them..
..First cousins of the "warrior poets" who occasionally found their way into infantry recruit training. They usually lasted a few months until they went into the bush for the first time. I always remember a naked one, sitting on the barracks roof at S Block, Pukka, at night, rifle in hand, crying his eyes out.
I can throw a Browning 9mm more accurately than I can shoot one. My shotgun and hunting rifles always seem to be locked in the gun safe when the snake comes out from under the house or the Sambur deer appears.
Having traveled from Burketown by road to Roper bar via the coast and fished for Barra in the Nicholson avec crocs, if I was a pilot traversing that country regularly, I think a handgun would be comforting, along with a lot of water. I wouldn't like to be injured with Dingos around either.
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Forget the handgun for 'protection', too much hassle - what you need is a real survival tool - a good knife. Still got your Old Timer, tin? Used to carry mine all the time before Leatherman came along. A houseboy knocked off my Puma White Hunter, and the Gurka Kukri that a sister gave me from her travels.
Do yourself and other pilots a favour by helping to control the vermin around airports with something like these -(sadly gone now), (# and no thanks to Johnny, but he'd bring back conscription to put a gun in young hands, and send them off overseas #).
The 303/25 on the M17 action with the 4 power scope accounted for a few donkeys in the N.T. in the mid '60's, and the Sako Vixen .222 with the 6 power scope would take roos with head shots to preserve the skins then too. Reloaded for both at the time to keep the costs down.
Do yourself and other pilots a favour by helping to control the vermin around airports with something like these -(sadly gone now), (# and no thanks to Johnny, but he'd bring back conscription to put a gun in young hands, and send them off overseas #).
The 303/25 on the M17 action with the 4 power scope accounted for a few donkeys in the N.T. in the mid '60's, and the Sako Vixen .222 with the 6 power scope would take roos with head shots to preserve the skins then too. Reloaded for both at the time to keep the costs down.
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Hey Longrass
They won't be aggrevated, they'll be dead, copping a .45inch copper jacketed hollow point between the eyes. Running at around 2540fps. Leaving a hole about the size of a tennis ball on the underside of its throat. Worked on a 4.5m salty and 700kg buffalo, and many a pig.....
However the .458 Winchester Magnum (a rifle cartridge) gets close with 2500fps from a 25 inch barrel pushing a relatively light 350 grain bullet. This rifle by the way is an elephant slayer when loaded with 500 grain (about 1 oz) pills at approx 2100fps.
So tell us longrass what are you really packing, because clearly your hand gun does no where near 2540fps?
PS
All data collected from the Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading.
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I think that the people advocating the use of a handgun against something like a Croc or a buffalo should try reading some of the stories by the croc & buffalo hunters of the 1950's like Tom Cole. They talk of poorly aimed 303 rounds glancing off a crocs back without any effect. And as for buffalo hunting. The technique back in the day was to ride a horse up alongside a buffalo at full tilt and with one outstretched arm fire a 303 round into the spine, just behind the head.
So the must have survival item to be carried in a GA aircraft for marauding buffalo is a 303 ....and a horse.
I've also worked in parts of the world whereby i've been threatened with guns & occasionally been shot at. Two of those occasions involved pax who were police officers, one a very senior PNG police officer and his off sider involving a loaded M16. And the other a white constable who went long long from shear heat and isolation in the tropics (Pacific-middle of nowhere) and gave me the honour of seeing what a Glock loaded with 9mm hollow points looks like up close and personal. On all of those occasions the macho in me would have loved to have been carrying a hip cannon, but the reality is that on all those occasions being unarmed certainly saved my life. If I'd have been carrying, then things would have escalated in a second. The loss of face would have resulted in shots fired and either me bleeding to death in some 3rd world sh!thole or still be explaining how it is that I came to kill a police officer. On all the other occasions, I simply wouldn't have been able to carry enough rounds to have escaped alive even if I could shoot it out.
Small consolation though it may be, most people who shoot at planes haven't been trained to "lead" the aircraft. And most people who set up road ambushes don't expect you to put your foot down & drive through them.
So the must have survival item to be carried in a GA aircraft for marauding buffalo is a 303 ....and a horse.
I've also worked in parts of the world whereby i've been threatened with guns & occasionally been shot at. Two of those occasions involved pax who were police officers, one a very senior PNG police officer and his off sider involving a loaded M16. And the other a white constable who went long long from shear heat and isolation in the tropics (Pacific-middle of nowhere) and gave me the honour of seeing what a Glock loaded with 9mm hollow points looks like up close and personal. On all of those occasions the macho in me would have loved to have been carrying a hip cannon, but the reality is that on all those occasions being unarmed certainly saved my life. If I'd have been carrying, then things would have escalated in a second. The loss of face would have resulted in shots fired and either me bleeding to death in some 3rd world sh!thole or still be explaining how it is that I came to kill a police officer. On all the other occasions, I simply wouldn't have been able to carry enough rounds to have escaped alive even if I could shoot it out.
Small consolation though it may be, most people who shoot at planes haven't been trained to "lead" the aircraft. And most people who set up road ambushes don't expect you to put your foot down & drive through them.
Last edited by psycho joe; 16th Aug 2010 at 05:00. Reason: clarity
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After the Monash University shooting in 2002, a federal law was introduced which limits all magazines to a maximum of 10 rounds. Congrats in proving to fellow pilots that your a gun zealot that ignores the rules and regs surrounding gun ownership.
I suggest you turn in the magazines to your nearest police station, so some idiot can't get your 9mm with 33 rounds....