NAIPS for iPhone
Did anyone else notice that in the latest lot of DAP amendments the "Copywright Airservices Australia" had been removed from a lot of the new pages?
Are the lobbyists winning this battle? Hope so!
Are the lobbyists winning this battle? Hope so!
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Understood mate. From a safety perspective I think common sense for most of us would dictate double checking any aeronautical, met data etc through another route in addition to on the iPhone. Of course, that doesn't change any potential copyright issues or lack thereof based on ASA's lack of response, but I assume that for the moment you'll still be distributing as a beta? 
Thread Starter
Your right about not having to tell pilots to check their met properly, but I do still have to cover my backside. I wouldn't expect any pilot to rely on any kind of electronic device for anything important (any airbus pilots here!!). Kidding.
Yeah I'll be still giving the beta out...today is last day though (Fri 12 Jun 09). A lawyer friend I spoke to (not in the copyright field though) said she could argue the case either way since its a bit grey. I dont want to risk that though, so It'll be AsA's call.
Oh well, thread is probably almost closed since it seems my hands are tied. I'll email out the beta to people still for my personal testing purposes. Apart from that, enjoy living in Australia.
Yeah I'll be still giving the beta out...today is last day though (Fri 12 Jun 09). A lawyer friend I spoke to (not in the copyright field though) said she could argue the case either way since its a bit grey. I dont want to risk that though, so It'll be AsA's call.
Oh well, thread is probably almost closed since it seems my hands are tied. I'll email out the beta to people still for my personal testing purposes. Apart from that, enjoy living in Australia.
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Regarding the copyright issue, I think one thing which can make a big difference is what you do with the data. ie., does the iPhone app retrieve directly from ASA using each person's login and parse the HTML directly?
OR, does the iPhone app make a request to YOUR OWN server which then retrieves the data from ASA, parses it, and sends it back to the requesting iPhone?
If the latter, then I would say there are problems with copyright because you are essentially altering the data between the client and ASA. If the former, then it is literally no different to using a web browser to access the ASA web pages (eg., using Safari on the iPhone). A web browser just parses the HTML and displays icons, text, etc. Your app seems to do the same - it's just customised to the particular HTML on the ASA site.
As I say though - a big difference depending on the backend method.
OR, does the iPhone app make a request to YOUR OWN server which then retrieves the data from ASA, parses it, and sends it back to the requesting iPhone?
If the latter, then I would say there are problems with copyright because you are essentially altering the data between the client and ASA. If the former, then it is literally no different to using a web browser to access the ASA web pages (eg., using Safari on the iPhone). A web browser just parses the HTML and displays icons, text, etc. Your app seems to do the same - it's just customised to the particular HTML on the ASA site.
As I say though - a big difference depending on the backend method.
Thread Starter
Regarding the copyright issue, I think one thing which can make a big difference is what you do with the data. ie., does the iPhone app retrieve directly from ASA using each person's login and parse the HTML directly?
As a few alluded to before me...
You are not onselling the data. You are merely providing a program that allows people to access the same data (also for free) that they would have logged in via naips or the net.
Simply, you have merely provided to conduit to access said data; you are not selling the data.
There should be no breach of copyright.
That's my bushlawyer's opinion anyway!
You are not onselling the data. You are merely providing a program that allows people to access the same data (also for free) that they would have logged in via naips or the net.
Simply, you have merely provided to conduit to access said data; you are not selling the data.
There should be no breach of copyright.
That's my bushlawyer's opinion anyway!
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Shagpile - I would think that if you show the copyright policy and/or show a little policy of your own removing liability from yourself (ie., saying that the app just fetches data from Airservices Australia and you're not responsible for it, you don't change it, etc) then I can't imagine much can happen.
You may be aware of the developer in Sydney who put the train timetables into an app - he go asked to remove the app. There were issues at play there, but my point was, he was asked to remove it. Companies will do that prior to jumping in and suing you.
If anything, my guess would be that ASA would simply be worried that you are changing the data. Hence a disclaimer.
On the other hand...I'm not a lawyer (then again, I don't charge like one either!)
You may be aware of the developer in Sydney who put the train timetables into an app - he go asked to remove the app. There were issues at play there, but my point was, he was asked to remove it. Companies will do that prior to jumping in and suing you.
If anything, my guess would be that ASA would simply be worried that you are changing the data. Hence a disclaimer.
On the other hand...I'm not a lawyer (then again, I don't charge like one either!)
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Shagpile,
You absolute legend mate!
That is simply incredible.
I can fully understand why flightplan etc hasnt been integrated yet but the program is looking brilliant and working really well.
Feedback to come to your email soon.
regards,
Nkand
You absolute legend mate!
That is simply incredible.
I can fully understand why flightplan etc hasnt been integrated yet but the program is looking brilliant and working really well.
Feedback to come to your email soon.
regards,
Nkand
Thread Starter
Nice - that was probably my first mistake! Better to ask for forgiveness than permission!
Here is the excerpt from AirServices when you login:
"Reproduced" - yeah kinda, but so does a web-browser.
"stored in a retrieval system" - Im guess they are talking about having my own server, so no.
If they mean my ability to save, then my paper copies are at risk!
"retransmitted" - I'm not doing this, its coming from their website.
"redistributed" - I dont think so, although I'm not sure what they mean by this. I can't think of an example.
"republished" - this is what I'm doing, although again, I'm not sure if they mean changing the data. Since its coming straight from their website to your phone in unaltered form, there is no republishing to be done!
"commercially exploited in any other way" - waaay too broad. This covers what I'm doing if I charge money...even if its to recover costs I guess.
I know everybody is keen to get their mits on this however all I have received are a couple of "wait, out" emails from AsA.
I might be a bit more proactive and give them a call and talk to a human on Monday and see how I go, work schedule permitting.
As for accuracy of information - I submitted a flight plan using internet explorer yesterday and it timed out. I clicked 'back' then submit again, and it worked fine. Upon reading the submitted flight plan readout, I realised 2 fields had cleared themselves (comments and delay). This kind of thing is going to happen with any method of accessing naips, and diligent checking (ie. airmanship) will always have a place.
Here is the excerpt from AirServices when you login:
NOTE 1. This work is copyright. You may download, display, print and reproduce
this material in unaltered form only for your non-commercial,
personal use or non-commercial use within your organisation.
No part of the material may be reproduced, stored in a
retrieval system, transmitted, redistributed, republished or
commercially exploited in any way without the prior written
permission of Airservices Australia.
Apart from any other use as permitted under the Copyright Act 1968.
this material in unaltered form only for your non-commercial,
personal use or non-commercial use within your organisation.
No part of the material may be reproduced, stored in a
retrieval system, transmitted, redistributed, republished or
commercially exploited in any way without the prior written
permission of Airservices Australia.
Apart from any other use as permitted under the Copyright Act 1968.
"stored in a retrieval system" - Im guess they are talking about having my own server, so no.
If they mean my ability to save, then my paper copies are at risk!
"retransmitted" - I'm not doing this, its coming from their website.
"redistributed" - I dont think so, although I'm not sure what they mean by this. I can't think of an example.
"republished" - this is what I'm doing, although again, I'm not sure if they mean changing the data. Since its coming straight from their website to your phone in unaltered form, there is no republishing to be done!
"commercially exploited in any other way" - waaay too broad. This covers what I'm doing if I charge money...even if its to recover costs I guess.
I know everybody is keen to get their mits on this however all I have received are a couple of "wait, out" emails from AsA.
I might be a bit more proactive and give them a call and talk to a human on Monday and see how I go, work schedule permitting.
As for accuracy of information - I submitted a flight plan using internet explorer yesterday and it timed out. I clicked 'back' then submit again, and it worked fine. Upon reading the submitted flight plan readout, I realised 2 fields had cleared themselves (comments and delay). This kind of thing is going to happen with any method of accessing naips, and diligent checking (ie. airmanship) will always have a place.
Thread Starter
Maybe some kind of poll to indicate support for this kind of thing would be quite persuasive when I finally get in contact with them? [eg. first name/ARN/comment?]
Not sure if there are any free ones online you can do that have ability to hide ARN from public.
Not sure if there are any free ones online you can do that have ability to hide ARN from public.
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Played briefly with it after I installed it tonight - very impressive, renders perfectly. Love it. Would love it more if ASA gave it the nod. A very useful backup to have available.
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Support for NAIPS for iPhone
This is crazy that it took this long for something like this to come about and now ASA is trying to stop it?! As a commercial pilot I know that everything is about speed and accuracy and by using the iPhone both with this app and PilotWiz Pro (and the like) makes everything a whole lot quicker.
Put me down because I definitely support this initiative. If you want my name and ARN feel free to send me an email/private message.
Put me down because I definitely support this initiative. If you want my name and ARN feel free to send me an email/private message.
Likewise, had a quick play tonight and it is simply fantastic...can see it being used everywhere, from GA to to the bigger guys if need be.
Shags, if you need it, I have a contact in ASA...PR rep..not the exact field you'd need to talk to re this sort of stuff, but still a start...let me know
Shags, if you need it, I have a contact in ASA...PR rep..not the exact field you'd need to talk to re this sort of stuff, but still a start...let me know
Thread Starter
Beta testing applications closed (lunchtime, sunday 13Jun09)
I'll be sending out an initial bug fix version that will work on everybody's phone on the list tonight (its a bit patch-work at the moment).
Sorry to anybody who missed out. I can only add 100 devices for ad-hoc testing in my apple account, and I need to save some spots for guys from work.
Hopefully we'll see it on the app store not too far away.
To answer other questions PM'd me - No, I can't make this for nokia as 100% of my code is built on the apple development kit and its 100% incompatible with anything else, and would require a 100% re-write Plus you wouldn't get the same look/feel as apple since I am using their fancy buttons, scrolling screens and tab bars etc.
I'll be sending out an initial bug fix version that will work on everybody's phone on the list tonight (its a bit patch-work at the moment).
Sorry to anybody who missed out. I can only add 100 devices for ad-hoc testing in my apple account, and I need to save some spots for guys from work.
Hopefully we'll see it on the app store not too far away.
To answer other questions PM'd me - No, I can't make this for nokia as 100% of my code is built on the apple development kit and its 100% incompatible with anything else, and would require a 100% re-write
Plus you wouldn't get the same look/feel as apple since I am using their fancy buttons, scrolling screens and tab bars etc.
Thread Starter
and now ASA is trying to stop it?
For all I know, they may tell me its a great idea and put it up ASAP. They may give me a whole bunch of money, a pat on the back and tell me to put it up for free and employ me for a large sum of money to support it (I can only dream!)
But going on other software developers being required to pay licensing fees for this kind of thing, it appears more likely that they will ask for money instead - something I can't afford. They will also likely require "formal" testing by themselves (again, time and money).
All potential outcomes seem to point to more time and money, however if I can convince them that this is no more than a one-web-site browser and it is in the aviation communities interest, then they may come round to the idea and embrace their vision statement:
Our Vision
Airservices Australia will be an efficient provider of air traffic management and aviation rescue and fire fighting services with an international reputation for excellence in safety, innovation and environmental performance.
Our Challenges
Airservices Australia will be an efficient provider of air traffic management and aviation rescue and fire fighting services with an international reputation for excellence in safety, innovation and environmental performance.
Our Challenges
- Delivering Excellent Core Performance - we will continue to meet our regulatory and legislated obligations and to improve the quality and cost-effectiveness of our core services
- Building a High Achieving Organisation - we will develop our people, leadership and capabilities
- Delivering the Future - we will meet the challenges of the future and position for next generation innovation and technology.
Thread Starter
there is nothing more cost effective than other software developers doing your job for free!