Gear Down In The Turn
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Psycho-joe
Oh how true, the newby with all his or her new idea's and unsupported theory,that surely must be a better way than the decades of experience passed off as what would that old git know...
The restriction on selecting flap in a turn (usually only a recommendation, but some instructors train that way) may be valid for aeroplanes that don't have asymmetry protection for the obvious reason that a surprise asymmetry could make life temporarily miserable if it happened in a turn. As has been mentioned, a descending turn won't impose 'g' loadings likely to cause any problems with either the gear or flaps. If the turn is balanced there won't be side loads, so the gear thingy must be unique to a few types, none of which I have flown.
If the POH or AFM says don't activate the gear or flaps in a turn then that is a clear limitation - period. If some other WRITTEN instruction from the owner or operator wishes to add additional limitations, it is incumbent upon the pilot hiring or being paid to fly the aeroplane to obey those instructions - whether they have any real basis or not.
But if it's just some silly old tosser's pet theory, ignore it if you know better and are certain that no instructions to the contrary exist.
If the POH or AFM says don't activate the gear or flaps in a turn then that is a clear limitation - period. If some other WRITTEN instruction from the owner or operator wishes to add additional limitations, it is incumbent upon the pilot hiring or being paid to fly the aeroplane to obey those instructions - whether they have any real basis or not.
But if it's just some silly old tosser's pet theory, ignore it if you know better and are certain that no instructions to the contrary exist.
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Gear down and locked, complete checks/checklist, then base turn.
Completing the checks/checklist on base keeps your eyes in the cockpit when you should be looking out. Fair enough too.
Aerostar gear door's do bust in turns if uncoordinated. Fortunately wasn't me.
Completing the checks/checklist on base keeps your eyes in the cockpit when you should be looking out. Fair enough too.
Aerostar gear door's do bust in turns if uncoordinated. Fortunately wasn't me.
Last edited by tio540; 9th Jun 2009 at 12:29.
Folks,
Or popping the gear inverted, in an (over) enthusiastic pitch and break.
Quite frankly, with the ball in the middle (and we all keep the ball in the middle, don't we, kiddies) it doesn't matter when you put the gear down, from the machinery's point, and a little "G" can assist, as I once found out when I had a main gear hang up --- took about 2.5 G to pull it out --- then needed a good sideslip to get it to lock (an old 707 trick)
No names, no pack drill, but there is one aircraft where a particular common nose gear problem only responds to a serious pullup, say 5G (it's limit is 7.5)
Tootle pip!!
FGD135 ---
Fer gaaarrds sake, what kind of angle of bank are you using in turns in the circuit.
And what kind of loads do you think the gear linkages take in normal taxying around a paddock, or some of the lousy sealed surfaces we operate off.
Psycho's the man with the answer.
military operations pop the gear in the base turn.,
Quite frankly, with the ball in the middle (and we all keep the ball in the middle, don't we, kiddies) it doesn't matter when you put the gear down, from the machinery's point, and a little "G" can assist, as I once found out when I had a main gear hang up --- took about 2.5 G to pull it out --- then needed a good sideslip to get it to lock (an old 707 trick)
No names, no pack drill, but there is one aircraft where a particular common nose gear problem only responds to a serious pullup, say 5G (it's limit is 7.5)
Tootle pip!!
FGD135 ---
Fer gaaarrds sake, what kind of angle of bank are you using in turns in the circuit.
And what kind of loads do you think the gear linkages take in normal taxying around a paddock, or some of the lousy sealed surfaces we operate off.
Psycho's the man with the answer.
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Gear down and locked, complete checks/checklist, then base turn.
Completing the checks/checklist on base keeps your eyes in the cockpit when you should be looking out.
Completing the checks/checklist on base keeps your eyes in the cockpit when you should be looking out.
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The 'preferred' method of joining a circuit according to the powers that be is an oblique downwind
Last edited by tio540; 9th Jun 2009 at 23:40.
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LeadSled, how about you read my post properly?
I made no references at all to turns in the circuit. The thread was about putting the gear down in a turn (read the title of the thread) and that was the issue I was addressing. RTFP.
Wasn't addressing that aspect. Do you think I'm advocating not extending the gear in the turn? You need to read my post again. My post was purely about answering the question put by the original poster. RTFP. I was not suggesting it should or should not be done - and I was not comparing the loads to those at other phases of flight. RTFP.
I question your ability to comprehend simple posts, LeadSled. You have read two things into my post that I clearly hadn't written. Please read the posts a bit more slowly and carefully next time. You have wasted our time.
Fer gaaarrds sake, what kind of angle of bank are you using in turns in the circuit.
And what kind of loads do you think the gear linkages take in normal taxying around a paddock, or some of the lousy sealed surfaces we operate off.
I question your ability to comprehend simple posts, LeadSled. You have read two things into my post that I clearly hadn't written. Please read the posts a bit more slowly and carefully next time. You have wasted our time.
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I'm quite surprised the other military or ex-military pilots on here who have commented don't know the real background behind this reasoning.
There was a single pilot military aircraft many moons ago (I can't for the life of me remember the aicraft type) where the location of the gear lever caused a head turning movement as the pilot leaned over and looked for it and then lifted the head back up (the selector may have been on the floor, not sure...). This head twisting and leaning while the aircraft was turning was causing extreme disorientation and aircraft at night were rolling over on their back during the base turn.
I think it is called a Coriolis illusion but can't be sure, and remember it being demonstrated to me on a spinning chair. It is not like most illusions - it is a particularly violent, uncomfortable and sudden feeling.
The fix was to mandate gear extension during level, unaccelerated flight. Problem solved.
Today, where ergonomics play a much larger role in aircraft design this problem has hopefully been eliminated. The gear lever is generally installed in a location which requires minimal head movement, and multi crew also removes the issue as the handling pilot is not operating gear/flaps etc.
Moral of the story is... If your AFM says you can't do it in your aircraft type, don't do it. If you are single pilot at night, minimise head twisting/turning/lifting movements and consider gear extension in level flight to prevent coriolis illusion. It is nothing like the leans or somatogravic... just feels like your head has been hit by a bus.
There was a single pilot military aircraft many moons ago (I can't for the life of me remember the aicraft type) where the location of the gear lever caused a head turning movement as the pilot leaned over and looked for it and then lifted the head back up (the selector may have been on the floor, not sure...). This head twisting and leaning while the aircraft was turning was causing extreme disorientation and aircraft at night were rolling over on their back during the base turn.
I think it is called a Coriolis illusion but can't be sure, and remember it being demonstrated to me on a spinning chair. It is not like most illusions - it is a particularly violent, uncomfortable and sudden feeling.
The fix was to mandate gear extension during level, unaccelerated flight. Problem solved.
Today, where ergonomics play a much larger role in aircraft design this problem has hopefully been eliminated. The gear lever is generally installed in a location which requires minimal head movement, and multi crew also removes the issue as the handling pilot is not operating gear/flaps etc.
Moral of the story is... If your AFM says you can't do it in your aircraft type, don't do it. If you are single pilot at night, minimise head twisting/turning/lifting movements and consider gear extension in level flight to prevent coriolis illusion. It is nothing like the leans or somatogravic... just feels like your head has been hit by a bus.
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Quite simply.....Once upon a time at an airport not far away a lowy inexperienced grade 3 instructor who thought that they were an undiscovered test pilot came up with this "rule" and imparted their wisdom on a hapless student who didn't know any better, who(m) in turn became a low experience instructor armed with this superior knowledge who trained somebody, who became a CFI, who then made it law.
