Log Book Forgery
If anyone has read an Ernest Gann book you will come across a story about a guy called Dudley who lied his way into a position as a skipper on a DC4 if memory serves me correctly.
He was subsequently found out after a check flight with the FAA at the time, however did not learn his lesson and some time later killed a few passengers after lying his way into another job he was not qualified for.
Some time later he committed suicide.
Well worth a read
He was subsequently found out after a check flight with the FAA at the time, however did not learn his lesson and some time later killed a few passengers after lying his way into another job he was not qualified for.
Some time later he committed suicide.
Well worth a read
For all those guys worried about 'errors' in their logbooks you can have accounting errors within a certain percentage of your total time. There is a CAO about it but I can't remember what the figure was. It was quite large like 5 or 10% of your total time.
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For all those guys worried about 'errors' in their logbooks you can have accounting errors within a certain percentage of your total time. There is a CAO about it but I can't remember what the figure was. It was quite large like 5 or 10% of your total time.
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For many years there was an ANO (now called CAO) that stated if you had an ATPL you could log ALL hours flown as in command. One airline captain I knew claimed over 40,000 hours and some of this claimed time was actually when he was dead-heading. He said the ANO allowed this - and he was right; although not very principled. Since then CASA have re-written the rules. Another airline pilot with total 5000 hours including 3000 on the 727 as first officer, claimed over 2500 hours as instrument flight time even though this was all in Australia and mostly fine weather. It certainly paid off because his hours got him a job flying big jets out of Hong Kong and is now a multi-millionaire. .
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Log book Integrity
QTN:
I understand your comments, however the people concerned, when they look in the mirror each morning, will know if they have added hours.
Regards
Tmb
I understand your comments, however the people concerned, when they look in the mirror each morning, will know if they have added hours.
Regards
Tmb
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In Europe the false entry is punished only if it was on a purpose of getting a licence.
So the EU-OPS states:
" A person shall not make, procure to be made, or assist in making false representations for the purpose of procuring either for himself or any other person the grant, validation or renewal of a licence or rating"
This makes more sense, because i think if you have 3000 hrs on a 737 but you write you have 5000 hrs it doesn't affect your licence but the operator where maybe they wanted a guy with a higher hours.
I believe what happened in CASA is that the guys put to many hours to get the licence and that is why they have lost it.
So the EU-OPS states:
" A person shall not make, procure to be made, or assist in making false representations for the purpose of procuring either for himself or any other person the grant, validation or renewal of a licence or rating"
This makes more sense, because i think if you have 3000 hrs on a 737 but you write you have 5000 hrs it doesn't affect your licence but the operator where maybe they wanted a guy with a higher hours.
I believe what happened in CASA is that the guys put to many hours to get the licence and that is why they have lost it.
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pimo, I think morally there's no difference between lying/cheating/faking your way into a higher license and making up the hours to push some other (by definition more deserving) pilot out of the way to get a job. 
I think you'll also find that falsifying a document like a logbook (here in Oz it has the status of a statutory declaration) will be looked at very unfavourably by prosecutors and company lawyers alike, and you'll be in a world of trouble when found out, not to mention you'll be unemployable (at least in the rest of the developed world).
For the sake of the reputation of the pilot community, and of course for the collective safety of aviation, m@rons who falsify their books in any significant way should be sacked and prosecuted, there's just no place for them in aviation.
The Gann story is a poignant one, make people believe you're compentent to do a safety relevant job when you're not, and it can become a nightmare you might not be able to recover from...
I think you'll also find that falsifying a document like a logbook (here in Oz it has the status of a statutory declaration) will be looked at very unfavourably by prosecutors and company lawyers alike, and you'll be in a world of trouble when found out, not to mention you'll be unemployable (at least in the rest of the developed world).
For the sake of the reputation of the pilot community, and of course for the collective safety of aviation, m@rons who falsify their books in any significant way should be sacked and prosecuted, there's just no place for them in aviation.
The Gann story is a poignant one, make people believe you're compentent to do a safety relevant job when you're not, and it can become a nightmare you might not be able to recover from...
Checking other documents
It seems CASA is starting to insist the MR hours for the day are entered at the end of the day's flying - don't know about others, but I was always taught to fill the previous day's hours in when doing the daily the next day (in case someone flew the aircraft unexpectedly after what you'd thought was going to be the last flight the day before). Now I'm wondering if this is so it is easier to cross-check MRs when doing a log book audit ...
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[QUOTE]BTW, I was told by an FAA flight instructor that any hours you fly after getting "your ticket" (his words) is PIC time if you're rated on that aircraft for that type of operation regardless of whether there is another pilot flying. ie, it sounds like you can you have two people logging PIC time in the US? Sounds dodge to me!/QUOTE]
This is not entirely correct. In the USA there is a difference between logging PIC and acting as PIC. You may log PIC anytime you are "sole manipulator of the controls" for an aircraft you are rated in (this also includes time the aircraft is operating on the autopilot if you are the "flying" pilot). In other words by the FAA, I am legal to log PIC time if I am flying as the SIC on an A320, I have a PIC type rating, and it is my leg to fly. You may also log PIC if you are acting as PIC (ie ultimate responsibility for the safety of flight). So yes, you can, under certain circumstances, have two pilots logging PIC. However if you are not the designated PIC (by dispatch release or type of operation) you must be manipulating the controls in order to log it.
I believe this is the reason why many applications specify that PIC time means "aircraft commander" or some other similar statement.
This is not entirely correct. In the USA there is a difference between logging PIC and acting as PIC. You may log PIC anytime you are "sole manipulator of the controls" for an aircraft you are rated in (this also includes time the aircraft is operating on the autopilot if you are the "flying" pilot). In other words by the FAA, I am legal to log PIC time if I am flying as the SIC on an A320, I have a PIC type rating, and it is my leg to fly. You may also log PIC if you are acting as PIC (ie ultimate responsibility for the safety of flight). So yes, you can, under certain circumstances, have two pilots logging PIC. However if you are not the designated PIC (by dispatch release or type of operation) you must be manipulating the controls in order to log it.
I believe this is the reason why many applications specify that PIC time means "aircraft commander" or some other similar statement.
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Incidently re logged hours.
If you loose your logbook CASA will only accept hours since they last saw it. Insurance companies may be different (both under and over).
In my case I put down hours:
X hours on certifed copy of APPLICATION FOR PILOTS LICENCE (CPL in 197X)
Y hours logged since 2000
= logged hours and quote logged hours (X+Y) + Z estimated hours on missing logbook separately
Insurance companies can be funny about both ends
If you loose your logbook CASA will only accept hours since they last saw it. Insurance companies may be different (both under and over).
In my case I put down hours:
X hours on certifed copy of APPLICATION FOR PILOTS LICENCE (CPL in 197X)
Y hours logged since 2000
= logged hours and quote logged hours (X+Y) + Z estimated hours on missing logbook separately
Insurance companies can be funny about both ends
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Throw the book at them! I recently invested in a computerised logbook programme..turns out I can't count! I diddled myself out of about 150hrs..I wonder if I can get the flight pay..hmmmm
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Hi guys, Casa audit sometime soon and the boss is hammering down on us making sure all our flight/duty times and logbook entries are cross referrenced and correct.
In this process we've all stumbled on maybe one or two flights where 2 pilots have gone up for single pilot ops in the 210 or 172 and both logged command time. Now we are trying to figure out who actually gets to keep the logged time. A few of our staff have held FIRs and justify that they are PIC but just practicing from the RHS, while the person in the left seat had just assumed they are PIC because they are left and it was not stated otherwise. Considering both pilots are sharing workload and both equally manipulated the controls, one from the LHS the other from the RHS, who gets the time? We are all bickering like little girls because its going to mean redoing all our flight and duty times which are all hand written. Also, is it legal to have whiteout on our logbooks?
Cheers
In this process we've all stumbled on maybe one or two flights where 2 pilots have gone up for single pilot ops in the 210 or 172 and both logged command time. Now we are trying to figure out who actually gets to keep the logged time. A few of our staff have held FIRs and justify that they are PIC but just practicing from the RHS, while the person in the left seat had just assumed they are PIC because they are left and it was not stated otherwise. Considering both pilots are sharing workload and both equally manipulated the controls, one from the LHS the other from the RHS, who gets the time? We are all bickering like little girls because its going to mean redoing all our flight and duty times which are all hand written. Also, is it legal to have whiteout on our logbooks?
Cheers
When CASA does a log book audit how far back do they go? As in do they just cross reference aircraft and flights at current employment or go back into previous employers and aircraft?
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That's a good qn... I don't think CASA would go to that extent unless they have been tipped off by someone or feel that you are dodgy..
I once new a guy who forged his twin hours for a good twin job and he said that almost everyone does it in the industry and it’s not a big deal. He is now a captain for a reputable company.
My advice is, the punishment does not fit the crime ... in the end, you are only cheating your self!
I once new a guy who forged his twin hours for a good twin job and he said that almost everyone does it in the industry and it’s not a big deal. He is now a captain for a reputable company.
My advice is, the punishment does not fit the crime ... in the end, you are only cheating your self!
amateur, if the guy in the right hand seat didn't indicate they were PiC for the flight and didn't do the take-off and landing, then the left seat pilot should keep the PiC time. All in my opinion only.
Let this be a lesson to you guys to brief who is in command of a flight before you fly! Imagine if you'd had an emergency and you both tried to make conflicting command decisions.
Let this be a lesson to you guys to brief who is in command of a flight before you fly! Imagine if you'd had an emergency and you both tried to make conflicting command decisions.
When CASA does a log book audit how far back do they go? As in do they just cross reference aircraft and flights at current employment or go back into previous employers and aircraft?
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I would be.
That is if CASA actually followed up on these things, I mean if they don't follow up on this stuff and in a hard way, what's the point in working your arse off when another guy just sits at home writing it in?
Makes it a joke.
That is if CASA actually followed up on these things, I mean if they don't follow up on this stuff and in a hard way, what's the point in working your arse off when another guy just sits at home writing it in?
Makes it a joke.