Log Book Forgery
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Cloud basher:
"I know an 18 year old with 2000+ hours and every one is legit! He had 500+ hours before he turned 16 and went solo!"
Unless things have changed recently.
16 is age for student licence, no more than 3 hrs [I think] can be logged before having a student licence. So he did 500+ hours dual with an instructor?
So his pre age 16 hours are not loggable and possibly illegal!
Glider pilots can solo at 15 and hours can be put towards licence hour minimums but are kept in a separate logbook and not used in totals normally.
[I don't add my 2.5K gliding to my power hours!
]
"I know an 18 year old with 2000+ hours and every one is legit! He had 500+ hours before he turned 16 and went solo!"
Unless things have changed recently.
16 is age for student licence, no more than 3 hrs [I think] can be logged before having a student licence. So he did 500+ hours dual with an instructor?
So his pre age 16 hours are not loggable and possibly illegal!
Glider pilots can solo at 15 and hours can be put towards licence hour minimums but are kept in a separate logbook and not used in totals normally.
[I don't add my 2.5K gliding to my power hours!
]
It's not really correct to say that MR time is up to the operator. The rules specify wheels off to wheels on for the aeroplane's MR. If you happen to use a device that records more time than flown then no harm done. It's not CASA's worry if the aircraft's maintenance falls due sooner than necessary. After all, there's nothing stopping you from putting your aircraft though a 100 hourly then 10 hours flight time later giving it another.
As for what's loggable by a pilot, that depends on the jurisdiction. No limit on how much is logged as dual prior to holding a Student Licence in the US. Also no multi endorsements so once you have a multi licence you can jump from one multi to the next (as long as its not one that requires a type rating or has some design feature you're not qualified to use).
Flight time limits in the US are different too. A typical non-scheduled Part 135 pilot ie flying the equivalent of 'charter' in Oz can do up to 1400 hours per year of Part 135 flight time and even do over the limits privately if the additional time doesn't precede a Pt135 flight eg do the maximum hours for the day but then can fly privately for as long as you feel capable & competent.
As for what's loggable by a pilot, that depends on the jurisdiction. No limit on how much is logged as dual prior to holding a Student Licence in the US. Also no multi endorsements so once you have a multi licence you can jump from one multi to the next (as long as its not one that requires a type rating or has some design feature you're not qualified to use).
Flight time limits in the US are different too. A typical non-scheduled Part 135 pilot ie flying the equivalent of 'charter' in Oz can do up to 1400 hours per year of Part 135 flight time and even do over the limits privately if the additional time doesn't precede a Pt135 flight eg do the maximum hours for the day but then can fly privately for as long as you feel capable & competent.
Last edited by Tinstaafl; 8th Jun 2009 at 18:26.
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This would mean flying 1000 hours a year since 16 years of age for 8 years straight! How many people fly max hours right from when they started ab initio? Flying max hours as a student pilot? yeah right!! lol!
Last edited by flog; 8th Jun 2009 at 01:54. Reason: Lost the power of spelling.
From CAR (1988) Regulation 2
time in service means:
(a) in relation to an aircraft — the period starting when the aircraft takes off on a flight and ending when the aircraft lands at the end of the flight; and
(b) in relation to an aircraft component — the period:
(i) during which the component is fitted to or provided in an aircraft; and
(ii) starting when the aircraft takes off on a flight and ending when the aircraft lands at the end of the flight.
(a) in relation to an aircraft — the period starting when the aircraft takes off on a flight and ending when the aircraft lands at the end of the flight; and
(b) in relation to an aircraft component — the period:
(i) during which the component is fitted to or provided in an aircraft; and
(ii) starting when the aircraft takes off on a flight and ending when the aircraft lands at the end of the flight.
Quote "This is something which really gets me, Why infact would you WANT to forge hours?"
The answer is simple. To get ahead of your peers and to get the job before they do. In a previous post I mentioned a pilot in my company who falsified his logbook in the race to get the minimum hours for a command ahead of his colleauges. The company minimum for command was actually set by the insurance company. If he had acheived the command, had an incident and the insurance company had found out about his fraud during their subsequent investigations, the policy would have been rendered invalid. This could have been significant as in this case the aircraft type was a 747.
The answer is simple. To get ahead of your peers and to get the job before they do. In a previous post I mentioned a pilot in my company who falsified his logbook in the race to get the minimum hours for a command ahead of his colleauges. The company minimum for command was actually set by the insurance company. If he had acheived the command, had an incident and the insurance company had found out about his fraud during their subsequent investigations, the policy would have been rendered invalid. This could have been significant as in this case the aircraft type was a 747.
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An instructor buddy of mine told me a few years ago the story of a fresh young student pilot who brought in his logbook to be signed off by his instructor at this particular flying school he was at. The instructor opened it up to discover it was already half full with hundreds of flights on all sorts of aircraft ranging from his real training flights to long haul in B747 and Airbus aircraft. Turns out he had also been logging all his microsoft flight simulator time. Wonder if he had the space shuttle in there too.
I couldn't believe it when issued my ATPL CASA only wanted to see the last three pages of my logbook. Totally inadequate IMO. CASA should start with an audit of all ATPL licence holders especially if employed in RPT, anyone with fraudulent entries can lose their licence and find a new job.
Best one I heard of was a (supposedly) QANTAS interview.
Skipper looking through a logbook notices a fair amount of time on "XYZ" and remarks.
Potential employee launches into a full history of the company, jobs he used to do, placed he went etc. etc.....
Skipper says, "Well that's very interesting because I actually own that aircraft and I'VE NEVER HEARD OF YOU."
Candidate would apparently listen on the radio and whenever he heard it (and others) coming and going would record the time.
HA.
Skipper looking through a logbook notices a fair amount of time on "XYZ" and remarks.
Potential employee launches into a full history of the company, jobs he used to do, placed he went etc. etc.....
Skipper says, "Well that's very interesting because I actually own that aircraft and I'VE NEVER HEARD OF YOU."
Candidate would apparently listen on the radio and whenever he heard it (and others) coming and going would record the time.
HA.
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Skipper says, "Well that's very interesting because I actually own that aircraft and I'VE NEVER HEARD OF YOU."
What do you think of people "forging" their logbook by REDUCING/not adding hours due to flight and duty times etc?
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What do you think of people "forging" their logbook by REDUCING/not adding hours due to flight and duty times etc?
Note that errors - genuine errors - cannot be considered falsification.
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Bit like the pilot looking for a job when asked 'any accidents or incidents' that answered 'no'. Person asking used to own an aircraft that the wannabe was the PIC of at the time it was written off.
Aviation - small enough that the bull
ers will often get caught.
Aviation - small enough that the bull
ers will often get caught.
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There is also the guy who forged his Hsc certificate to get a job with Ansett. He was 'discovered' half way through the ground school & sacked.
He's a Jetstar 330 Captain now.
He's a Jetstar 330 Captain now.
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And the priceless cheat who went to Bermuda after the
1989 disaster, made or stole Bermuda Civil Aviation
official stamps and gave himself endorsements on a bunch
of transport types, Learjet, 737,etc.
He returned to OZ, got the endorsements into his OZ
licence and went up to Malaysia to fly the 737.
The Malays got suspicious as he had no idea about
the 737, they informed CASA who finally shredded
his OZ licence. Who needs to forge logbook hours!
He's probably in Bermuda flying Gulfstreams!
1989 disaster, made or stole Bermuda Civil Aviation
official stamps and gave himself endorsements on a bunch
of transport types, Learjet, 737,etc.
He returned to OZ, got the endorsements into his OZ
licence and went up to Malaysia to fly the 737.
The Malays got suspicious as he had no idea about
the 737, they informed CASA who finally shredded
his OZ licence. Who needs to forge logbook hours!
He's probably in Bermuda flying Gulfstreams!
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dirty dogs
They shouldnt just take their logbooks but hit it where it really hurts...in the wallet.
I know of a mofo who is a PIC with a reputable oz carrier who logged a bunch of hours on VH-BIC and you know what its pricks like this that seem to get away with it.
Thankyou CASA for once....will hear what comes of it. If nothing then an annon report will surely get their attention.
Enjoy it while it lasts YOU MOTHERFG DOGS!!!!
Peace to the rest of you battlers though
I know of a mofo who is a PIC with a reputable oz carrier who logged a bunch of hours on VH-BIC and you know what its pricks like this that seem to get away with it.
Thankyou CASA for once....will hear what comes of it. If nothing then an annon report will surely get their attention.
Enjoy it while it lasts YOU MOTHERF
G DOGS!!!!Peace to the rest of you battlers though
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with all these cases of logbook fraud, why hasn't casa laid any criminal charges on the offenders if its a criminal offence? doesn't send a good message to the flying community does it? 
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I think us honest folk can rest easy in the knowledge that this type of fraud has one massive drawback: It takes away the beautiful feeling of being free above the clouds and knowing you have the best job in the world 
, doing what you love, being respected for the work you've put in to get where you are and for the professionalism and skill you used to get there and which people see along with the pride of doing the best job you can every day, hoping you'll be even better tomorrow 
These guys (possibly even a few gals, but I'd be surprised, the pride/guild glands are colocated in females methinks) who lied their way into the business end of a shiny piece of metal go to work every day with the nagging thought that today might be the day they get found out, lose their job, the respect of their peers, and everything they worked (but also lied) for.
They will never ever be able to perceive flying as what it truly is, and so what if they're ahead in the seniority list, earn more money, fly the bigger jet, and have the bigger house? They're the poorer human, and they're missing out on the thing that makes flying truly special
Any even if these scumb@gs can bury that guilt deep in their unconscious for a while, it'll sure as a headwind come back to haunt them, and eventually it'll get them one way or the other, at the next tea & biccies or as stress related heart disease decades later 
Right, beautiful day out there, I'm going flying Blue skies everyone 
, doing what you love, being respected for the work you've put in to get where you are and for the professionalism and skill you used to get there and which people see along with the pride of doing the best job you can every day, hoping you'll be even better tomorrow These guys (possibly even a few gals, but I'd be surprised, the pride/guild glands are colocated in females methinks
) who lied their way into the business end of a shiny piece of metal go to work every day with the nagging thought that today might be the day they get found out, lose their job, the respect of their peers, and everything they worked (but also lied) for. They will never ever be able to perceive flying as what it truly is, and so what if they're ahead in the seniority list, earn more money, fly the bigger jet, and have the bigger house? They're the poorer human, and they're missing out on the thing that makes flying truly special
Any even if these scumb@gs can bury that guilt deep in their unconscious for a while, it'll sure as a headwind come back to haunt them, and eventually it'll get them
one way or the other, at the next tea & biccies or as stress related heart disease decades later Right, beautiful day out there, I'm going flying
Blue skies everyone