Log Book Forgery
I'm about 6 hours out in my favour! don't know how that happened but I suppose I'll close off the page and cite addition error, then start on the correct figure on the following page.
Only problem is finding out where this error is!! When every column is in use in your log apart from single engine ICUS and multi engine night dual, it will be a pain to track down.
I think when I add the next page I might subtract it from the total which will keep it neat and run with that.....
hmmmmm
As for these other scum bags forging entries, karma will get you my friends. I just hope it doesn't strike you down with pax on board
Only problem is finding out where this error is!! When every column is in use in your log apart from single engine ICUS and multi engine night dual, it will be a pain to track down.
I think when I add the next page I might subtract it from the total which will keep it neat and run with that.....
hmmmmm
As for these other scum bags forging entries, karma will get you my friends. I just hope it doesn't strike you down with pax on board
If you do find you have a) credited too many hours b) credited too little hours or c) not logged a flight what is the standard thing to do to make it kosher again?
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This is something which really gets me, Why infact would you WANT to forge hours?
When you hit your 1000, 10000 hour mark (if you go that far) you should feel it as an achievement and something to look back on, as opposed to hitting the 10,000 hour mark and going "sweet, time to forge another 5,000 hours.."
I'm pretty sure that most pilots who are honest about hours get a really good feeling when they hit x hours. I wouldn't want to throw that away.
When you hit your 1000, 10000 hour mark (if you go that far) you should feel it as an achievement and something to look back on, as opposed to hitting the 10,000 hour mark and going "sweet, time to forge another 5,000 hours.."
I'm pretty sure that most pilots who are honest about hours get a really good feeling when they hit x hours. I wouldn't want to throw that away.
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What about fake degrees
I reckon a degree would be far easier to forge than a logbook, because aviation is a small game and (as has been shown here) it's easy to run into someone who knows better or can smell the lack of experience.
Pyro, Lord knows, but IMHO some people are just dishonest and will use any shortcut they can find, moral / legal or otherwise.
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Yeah, I too once knew a bloke that had a penchant for ummm... exaggerating his experience. I only found out about it when I ran into his boss one day and he asked me about how much time I'd spent training him -to which I responded "I ain't an instructor of any flavour -he can't log any of that time!"
What twists my knackers worst though is that when his boss died, this was the same guy that lead the charge on a very public (ongoing) persecution of him.
His time will come.
What twists my knackers worst though is that when his boss died, this was the same guy that lead the charge on a very public (ongoing) persecution of him.
His time will come.
Hey Littlebird does this mean there are 3 more charter jobs out there atm?!
Might be a slight drift, but is writing in your logbook in red pen to mark a particular achievement legal? I wrote my 1000th hour day in red.
Perhaps i'm naive, or to trusting, but I can't believe that folks (scum) would actually forge entries in their log book!
Cheers,
Greaser
Might be a slight drift, but is writing in your logbook in red pen to mark a particular achievement legal? I wrote my 1000th hour day in red.
Perhaps i'm naive, or to trusting, but I can't believe that folks (scum) would actually forge entries in their log book!
Cheers,
Greaser
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Originally Posted by Deaf
296 hours underestimate quite a bit.
Bugsmasherdriverandjediknite
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I think once you hit the +5K hr mark, your maths becomes a little sloppy. I have gone months at a time and not recorded anything in my log book. then I get all conscientious and have a collect up of all the bits of paper in my flight bag, fuel receipts with writing on them and look at all the maps with writing on them, do a reconciliation and add them in the appropriate columns. I have no doubt i have under recorded by missing flights here and there, but all my maintenance releases are up to date and done daily as required by the regs.
I'm not relying on my hours to get me into a job or qualification, so I don't think I'm going to upset anyone......... well more than normally anyway. if anything, I have more
experiance than my logbook states. How could that be detrimental to anything?
I'm not relying on my hours to get me into a job or qualification, so I don't think I'm going to upset anyone......... well more than normally anyway. if anything, I have more
experiance than my logbook states. How could that be detrimental to anything?
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on the casa website it says;
"Falsification of a log book is a criminal offence;"
does that mean you can go to jail for it?
and why aren't you allowed to keep an electronic log book? i thought there'd be less likelihood of addition errors if you used an electronic version.
"Falsification of a log book is a criminal offence;"
does that mean you can go to jail for it?
and why aren't you allowed to keep an electronic log book? i thought there'd be less likelihood of addition errors if you used an electronic version.
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If there looks like an issue, they normally check the airservices bills and aerodrome operator bills. These have a "to the minute time" of take off and landing. ie if you fly to the outback and cancel sar in a 2 bob town or minesite this time is recorded, as is departure etc.
So if you think you can get an extra 0.3 etc you are kidding yourself..
Just not worth it.
So if you think you can get an extra 0.3 etc you are kidding yourself..
Just not worth it.
CASA Guidance
A pilot must keep a personal log book [Civil Aviation Regulation (CAR) 5.51]
A log book consists of a number of pages permanently bound together in such a way that pages may not be replaced or removed;
An electronic record is not acceptable as a log book, however, a computer printout bound together in the form of a log book and maintained up to date is acceptable;
All manual entries to the log book must be made in permanent ink;
This log book is to be produced to the Civil Aviation Safety Authority (CASA) when requested;
Falsification of a log book is a criminal offence;
There is no regulatory requirement to carry a personal log book on a flight.
Note this is guidance, not law
CASA link
A log book consists of a number of pages permanently bound together in such a way that pages may not be replaced or removed;
An electronic record is not acceptable as a log book, however, a computer printout bound together in the form of a log book and maintained up to date is acceptable;
All manual entries to the log book must be made in permanent ink;
This log book is to be produced to the Civil Aviation Safety Authority (CASA) when requested;
Falsification of a log book is a criminal offence;
There is no regulatory requirement to carry a personal log book on a flight.
Note this is guidance, not law
CASA link
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Quick question; I cancel my SAR backtracking the runway, then need to wait 3mins for the turbo's to cool (Legal Definition to log is chocks to chocks, so yes I may cheat by 1min... but really when the engines run, I've always been told thats what to log), in theory adding up to 0.1hrs of time to my flight every time I go up, if CASA see this discrepancy would they care?
SO
SO
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206 greaser,
I' not sure what the company intends to do about the 3 departures at this stage. I know it has been quite around here for the past 4 weeks, so the CP might decide to see how things pan out with the current force.
Please do not PM me as we are not allowed to discuss this any further at this stage. In good time everyone will know, and CASA seemed confident at the debrief on Friday that there will be many more to come.
Locations to be audited will be random but they did say they will return for another audit on the company after their visit to Horn Island and Darwin.
I' not sure what the company intends to do about the 3 departures at this stage. I know it has been quite around here for the past 4 weeks, so the CP might decide to see how things pan out with the current force.
Please do not PM me as we are not allowed to discuss this any further at this stage. In good time everyone will know, and CASA seemed confident at the debrief on Friday that there will be many more to come.
Locations to be audited will be random but they did say they will return for another audit on the company after their visit to Horn Island and Darwin.
Last edited by "Littlebird"; 7th Jun 2009 at 11:46.
Bugsmasherdriverandjediknite
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If there looks like an issue, they normally check the airservices bills and aerodrome operator bills. These have a "to the minute time" of take off and landing. ie if you fly to the outback and cancel sar in a 2 bob town or minesite this time is recorded, as is departure etc.
So if you think you can get an extra 0.3 etc you are kidding yourself..
So if you think you can get an extra 0.3 etc you are kidding yourself..
Folks,
The definition of "flight time", for the purposes of your log book is quite clear, and in the definitions in the Civil Aviation Act 1988.
Given some of the comments in this thread, I would strongly recommend some of you familiarize yourself with what you are legally required to log, before the CASA audit.
Falsification of a log book is not only an offence under the Civil Aviation Act, it is also an offence under the (Cth) Crimes Act.
It has nothing to do directly with "tacho" time, which isn't really time at all, or air time, the latter goes on the MR.
Be aware that any conviction for an aviation related offence will bar you from entry to the US, and potentially a number of other countries. The possible result for employment and career ambitions is rather obvious, as some I know have found out the hard way. The data exchange between US and Au all all too efficient in this area.
If you have any doubts about this, I suggest you visit the USCIS web site.
Tootle pip!!
The definition of "flight time", for the purposes of your log book is quite clear, and in the definitions in the Civil Aviation Act 1988.
Given some of the comments in this thread, I would strongly recommend some of you familiarize yourself with what you are legally required to log, before the CASA audit.
Falsification of a log book is not only an offence under the Civil Aviation Act, it is also an offence under the (Cth) Crimes Act.
It has nothing to do directly with "tacho" time, which isn't really time at all, or air time, the latter goes on the MR.
Be aware that any conviction for an aviation related offence will bar you from entry to the US, and potentially a number of other countries. The possible result for employment and career ambitions is rather obvious, as some I know have found out the hard way. The data exchange between US and Au all all too efficient in this area.
If you have any doubts about this, I suggest you visit the USCIS web site.
Tootle pip!!
Last edited by LeadSled; 7th Jun 2009 at 16:19.
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There's a guy on the South Asia and Far East forum who claims to have 8000 hours at 24 years of age.
BTW, I was told by an FAA flight instructor that any hours you fly after getting "your ticket" (his words) is PIC time if you're rated on that aircraft for that type of operation regardless of whether there is another pilot flying. ie, it sounds like you can you have two people logging PIC time in the US? Sounds dodge to me!
Cheers
CB
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LeadSled, if you're being patronizing, at least get it right no offense, but it read a bit like that 
good points made, however
The definition is in the Regulations, not the Act
Given that you'll be moving under your own power in most cases shortly after engine start, VDO time will be close enough -- and the fact that pretty much all training schools teach their students to log VDO, and charge for it, would suggest it's accepted practice and condoned by the regulator..
What you record on the MR is actually up to the operator, MR time is convenient as it buys you around 10-15% extra time between 100 hourlies, but no-one would prevent you from logging VDO or tacho as long as you're being consistent..
no offense, but it read a bit like that good points made, however The definition is in the Regulations, not the Act
flight time means:
(a) in the case of a heavier-than-air aircraft—the total time from the
moment at which the aircraft first moves under its own power for
the purpose of taking-off until the moment at which it comes to
rest after landing; and
(b) in the case of a lighter-than-air aircraft—the total time from the
moment at which the aircraft first becomes airborne until it
comes to rest on the ground, excluding any time during which the
aircraft is moored.
(a) in the case of a heavier-than-air aircraft—the total time from the
moment at which the aircraft first moves under its own power for
the purpose of taking-off until the moment at which it comes to
rest after landing; and
(b) in the case of a lighter-than-air aircraft—the total time from the
moment at which the aircraft first becomes airborne until it
comes to rest on the ground, excluding any time during which the
aircraft is moored.
What you record on the MR is actually up to the operator, MR time is convenient as it buys you around 10-15% extra time between 100 hourlies, but no-one would prevent you from logging VDO or tacho as long as you're being consistent..
Then there was the Ansett pilot who had "logged time" as an A-4 Skyhawk pilot with the RAN. He was found out when some real ex-RAN fighter jocks in Ansett were asked if they knew him and they denounced him. Turns out he'd been a cadet or midshipman or whatever and never seen a "Scooter" in his life...
Same guy who was onboard the Gulfstream that buried itself up to the fuselage at Goolwa that day.
BTW, I was told by an FAA flight instructor that any hours you fly after getting "your ticket" (his words) is PIC time if you're rated on that aircraft for that type of operation regardless of whether there is another pilot flying. ie, it sounds like you can you have two people logging PIC time in the US? Sounds dodge to me!