My GNS430W is lost!
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Why offset?? (SLOP)
If I was trucking around IFR then I'd definitely be doing it. Standard Lateral Offset Procedures (SLOP) ensure that if there is a cockup (whether ATC or Pilot or both) and 2 aircraft are on reciprocal tracks at the same altitude then they won't touch nosecones. It's amazing (and I'm probably preaching to the converted here!) how accurately a coupled autopilot (and some pilots for that matter) can track. I remember being in the upfront in an ATR out of NZQN for NZCH when the TCAS displayed opposite direction traffic 1000ft below in our 12 o'clock at xx miles. The aircraft (another ATR) passed directly below us and had we been at the same level then each pilot would've been introducedintimately with the other co-pilot!!
As a VFR only pilot I tend not to fly directly between points but meander a little (mostly 'cos I can't fly straight anyway!), and about 80 - 100ft below the VFR cruising level (again mostly 'cos I can't fly level!) just so I have a better chance of seeing most of the other VFR aircraft. My aircraft has particularly poor visibility (especially if someone is sitting in the front cockpit). There are some places that I won't fly (like near NZHN around Templeview or Cambridge at 1700ft) 'cos I know that every other man and his dog are likely to be there too!! And once I'm given a standard Arrival Procedure (and traffic information) I'll climb/descend to 1700ft a little wiser and probably much safer!!
As a VFR only pilot I tend not to fly directly between points but meander a little (mostly 'cos I can't fly straight anyway!), and about 80 - 100ft below the VFR cruising level (again mostly 'cos I can't fly level!) just so I have a better chance of seeing most of the other VFR aircraft. My aircraft has particularly poor visibility (especially if someone is sitting in the front cockpit). There are some places that I won't fly (like near NZHN around Templeview or Cambridge at 1700ft) 'cos I know that every other man and his dog are likely to be there too!! And once I'm given a standard Arrival Procedure (and traffic information) I'll climb/descend to 1700ft a little wiser and probably much safer!!
Last edited by slackie; 20th May 2009 at 19:45. Reason: Added reason for keeping clear of 1700ft
If I was trucking around IFR then I'd definitely be doing it.
Quite OK for VFR, but IFR??????????????????????
There are some places that I won't fly (like near NZHN around Templeview or Cambridge at 1700ft) 'cos I know that every other man and his dog are likely to be there too!!
If I was trucking around IFR then I'd definitely be doing it. Standard Lateral Offset Procedures (SLOP) ensure that if there is a cockup (whether ATC or Pilot or both) and 2 aircraft are on reciprocal tracks at the same altitude then they won't touch nosecones.
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Well the old ageing 767 I was on the other day with a 2nm R offset put it bang on the opposite direction traffics track. (I think it was a 777 so it would have had GPS). Our fine nearly 20 yr old machine didnt have such a luxury item as a GPS.
We would be better off with its random IRS errors to not put us anywhere near the correct track anyway.
We would be better off with its random IRS errors to not put us anywhere near the correct track anyway.
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Warning...thread dift!
27/09
SLOP is a recognised procedure...all tracks that are separated laterally have contingency built in to cope with navigation "error"...SLOP fits in with this "error"...I'm certainly not advocating large offsets.
The HN procedures were designed, tested, developed with input from the local users (that could be bothered!), and I get sick of hearing those who want their cake and eat it too...."I want to operate in controlled airspace, but I don't want to have to comply with any instructions, but if I come close to another aircraft then it's ATC's fault"...please give it a rest!!
Airmanship just doesn't seem to part of the training syllabus anymore (at some places). Common sense should dictate that in uncontrolled airspace you'd avoid areas of potential conflict. Or am I wrong.
In the interests of avoiding hijacking this thread I'll avoid commenting more here...but if 27/09 wants to start another thread then I'd happily elaborate.
SLOP is a recognised procedure...all tracks that are separated laterally have contingency built in to cope with navigation "error"...SLOP fits in with this "error"...I'm certainly not advocating large offsets.
A system designed by ATC to ensure any air to airs happen outside of controlled airspace.
Airmanship just doesn't seem to part of the training syllabus anymore (at some places). Common sense should dictate that in uncontrolled airspace you'd avoid areas of potential conflict. Or am I wrong.In the interests of avoiding hijacking this thread I'll avoid commenting more here...but if 27/09 wants to start another thread then I'd happily elaborate.
Thread Starter
So I guess the only question left unanswered is why would the Mad Dr dial in a 5 nm parallel offset track?
Good question!
If I am on an IFR plan I generally dial up a 1 nm right parallel offset track - but I was VFR!
I realised that my track was going to take me almost right over the top of the No.3 Outstation on Rocklands north of Camoweal! So I dialled in the 5 nm offset so that I would pass just to the east and be able to take a pic. I spent many hard days and quite a few hard nights there, back when I were a young fella!
This will bring a nostalgic tear to the eyes of any ex-Stanbroke pilots out there.
....and a couple from 35 yrs ago!
What a top spot!
NOT!
Dr
Good question!
If I am on an IFR plan I generally dial up a 1 nm right parallel offset track - but I was VFR!
I realised that my track was going to take me almost right over the top of the No.3 Outstation on Rocklands north of Camoweal! So I dialled in the 5 nm offset so that I would pass just to the east and be able to take a pic. I spent many hard days and quite a few hard nights there, back when I were a young fella!
This will bring a nostalgic tear to the eyes of any ex-Stanbroke pilots out there.
....and a couple from 35 yrs ago!
What a top spot!
NOT!
Dr
Last edited by ForkTailedDrKiller; 21st May 2009 at 08:27.
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If I am on an IFR plan I generally dial up a 1 nm right parallel offset track - but I was VFR!
Forkair SOP's specifically state no VFR flight above 1500'AGL and further than 5NM from the departure aerodrome
The CP will want a chat with you when he see's the height that pic was taken from!
Yeah I know our backward ATC in the outback has no VHF.......you will need to ammend the SOP's.
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Ooops, bl00dy acronyms!
STRATEGIC Lateral Offset Procedure (SLOP) is normally used in high level cuise by turboprop/turbojet aircraft, and is common in Oceanic airspace, in fact I think it was widely introduced in Oakland/Anchorage Pacific airspace back in late '04/'05 for those aircraft suitable equipped. I am sure that aircraft DON'T need to request it but when in radar contact must maintain their offset (usually 1nm right of track) so the controller can anticipate their track will remain constant (offset).
Google it...there's probably lots around...
In fact have just done it and here is Wikipedia entry.... Strategic Lateral Offset Procedure - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Google it...there's probably lots around...
In fact have just done it and here is Wikipedia entry.... Strategic Lateral Offset Procedure - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Last edited by slackie; 22nd May 2009 at 20:48. Reason: Added Googled wiki reference
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YBTR or YBTR
Another trap is going into YBTR (Blackwater). The lat/long for the enroute waypoint and the aerodrome are the same, however the FMS (flight management system with integrated GPS) units we use on the DHC8 will allow an RNAV to either, with most of the tracks and distances agreeing except for the last and most critical leg, hence the requirement to check each leg before doing the approach.
Generally the first option that comes up if diverting to YBTR is the waypoint and even a lat/long check will not pick up any problem.
It is quite amusing to see the look of disbelief in a new F/O when the two approaches can be compared on adjacent systems.
Always have a healthy respect for automation and GIGO.
Generally the first option that comes up if diverting to YBTR is the waypoint and even a lat/long check will not pick up any problem.
It is quite amusing to see the look of disbelief in a new F/O when the two approaches can be compared on adjacent systems.
Always have a healthy respect for automation and GIGO.
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OK, here is big brother's statement re SLOP:
http://www.airservicesaustralia.com....o/docs/gps.pdf
sc
http://www.airservicesaustralia.com....o/docs/gps.pdf
sc
SLOP
Even though it was advocated for IFR use by Slackie it would seem that its not approved for that purpose in OZ and I am not aware that it's approved here in NZ either.
VFR only then it would seem, BUT don't forget that you have parallel offset enabled otherwise confusion may reign eh DOC.
Even though it was advocated for IFR use by Slackie it would seem that its not approved for that purpose in OZ and I am not aware that it's approved here in NZ either.
VFR only then it would seem, BUT don't forget that you have parallel offset enabled otherwise confusion may reign eh DOC.
