Visual Approach
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Visual Approach
Scenario:
I am tracking 170 To the destanations VOR, and cleared to descend to 2,000. I am at 15dme when im "cleared visual approach" at night.
The runway track is 190. When may i descend?
1) 5nm if established on PAPI
2) 7nm if on a PAPI (on an ILS runway)
3) 10nm if on the ILS (14nm at sydney)
4) When within the circling area, 2.66nm for cat b
1,2,3 are not possible as im not established on final
The only way i can see of doing it is #4. But losing 2,000ft in under 3nm is not possible.
Should approach be telling me i am "cleared visual approach, and maneuver as required to intercept final"? if not should i be asking them?
I am tracking 170 To the destanations VOR, and cleared to descend to 2,000. I am at 15dme when im "cleared visual approach" at night.
The runway track is 190. When may i descend?
1) 5nm if established on PAPI
2) 7nm if on a PAPI (on an ILS runway)
3) 10nm if on the ILS (14nm at sydney)
4) When within the circling area, 2.66nm for cat b
1,2,3 are not possible as im not established on final
The only way i can see of doing it is #4. But losing 2,000ft in under 3nm is not possible.
Should approach be telling me i am "cleared visual approach, and maneuver as required to intercept final"? if not should i be asking them?
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different rules in the big country AI, I've just coverted my licence and there was some serious study to be done..one of us is ICAO but I'm not sure which!
11.6.4 Tracking Requirements. Tracking requirements for a visual approach
include the following:
a. A pilot in command must maintain track/heading on the route
progressively authorised by ATC until:
(1) by day, within 5NM of the aerodrome; or
(2) by night,
− for an IFR flight, within the prescribed circling area; or
− for a VFR flight, within 3NM of the aerodrome; and
− the aerodrome is in sight.
b. From this position the circuit must be joined as directed by ATC
for an approach to the nominated runway.
11.6.5 Minimum Altitude Requirements. During the conduct of a visual
approach, a pilot must descend as necessary to:
a. by day:
(1) for an IFR flight, remain not less than 500FT above the
lower limit of the CTA; and
(2) for IFR and VFR flights, operate not below the lowest altitude
permissible for VFR flight (CAR 157).
b. by night:
(1) for an IFR flight:
− maintain an altitude not less than the route segment
LSALT/MSA or the appropriate step of the DME/
GPS Arrival procedure, or 500FT above the lower
limit of the CTA, if this is higher; or
− if receiving an ATS surveillance service, operate not
below the last assigned altitude;
until the aircraft is:
− within the prescribed circling area for the category
of aircraft or a higher category, where the limitations
of the higher category are complied with, and the
aerodrome is in sight; or
− within 5NM (7NM for a runway equipped with an
ILS) of the aerodrome, aligned with the runway
centreline and established not below on slope on
the T-VASIS or PAPI; or
− within 10NM (14NM for Runways 16L and 34L at
Sydney) of the aerodrome, established not belowthe ILS glide path with less than full scale azimuth
deflection.
(2) for a VFR flight:
− maintain not less than the lowest altitude permissible
for VFR flight (CAR 174B) until the aircraft is
within 3NM of the aerodrome and the aerodrome is
in sight.
11.6.6 When conducting a visual approach, a pilot in command must not
climb above an altitude reported to ATC as having been reached or
left, unless authorised to do so.
11.6.7 A pilot in command operating under the IFR who desires a visual
approach and is satisfied that the visual conditions as per para
11.6.1 can be met must report VISUAL. A pilot who is unable to
continue a visual approach which has been authorised by ATC
must immediately advise ATC.
11.6.8 A pilot reporting VISUAL, may initially be given a clearance below
the LSALT to a specific altitude in the following terms:
a. by day, DESCEND TO (level) VISUAL; or
b. by night, WHEN ESTABLISHED IN THE CIRCLING AREA,
DESCEND TO (level) VISUAL.
11.6.9 A pilot descending to and maintaining a specific altitude visually
below the LSALT must comply with the minimum altitude requirements
detailed at para 11.6.5.
11.6.10 A pilot may be assigned the responsibility to follow another arriving
aircraft which he/she has reported sighting. When assigned
this responsibility, the pilot must maintain separation from and not
overtake that aircraft. In this circumstance, the pilot is also responsible
for providing his/her own wake turbulence separation except
that ATC is responsible for wake turbulence separation between
landing aircraft. If sighting is subsequently lost, the pilot must advise
ATC immediately.
include the following:
a. A pilot in command must maintain track/heading on the route
progressively authorised by ATC until:
(1) by day, within 5NM of the aerodrome; or
(2) by night,
− for an IFR flight, within the prescribed circling area; or
− for a VFR flight, within 3NM of the aerodrome; and
− the aerodrome is in sight.
b. From this position the circuit must be joined as directed by ATC
for an approach to the nominated runway.
11.6.5 Minimum Altitude Requirements. During the conduct of a visual
approach, a pilot must descend as necessary to:
a. by day:
(1) for an IFR flight, remain not less than 500FT above the
lower limit of the CTA; and
(2) for IFR and VFR flights, operate not below the lowest altitude
permissible for VFR flight (CAR 157).
b. by night:
(1) for an IFR flight:
− maintain an altitude not less than the route segment
LSALT/MSA or the appropriate step of the DME/
GPS Arrival procedure, or 500FT above the lower
limit of the CTA, if this is higher; or
− if receiving an ATS surveillance service, operate not
below the last assigned altitude;
until the aircraft is:
− within the prescribed circling area for the category
of aircraft or a higher category, where the limitations
of the higher category are complied with, and the
aerodrome is in sight; or
− within 5NM (7NM for a runway equipped with an
ILS) of the aerodrome, aligned with the runway
centreline and established not below on slope on
the T-VASIS or PAPI; or
− within 10NM (14NM for Runways 16L and 34L at
Sydney) of the aerodrome, established not belowthe ILS glide path with less than full scale azimuth
deflection.
(2) for a VFR flight:
− maintain not less than the lowest altitude permissible
for VFR flight (CAR 174B) until the aircraft is
within 3NM of the aerodrome and the aerodrome is
in sight.
11.6.6 When conducting a visual approach, a pilot in command must not
climb above an altitude reported to ATC as having been reached or
left, unless authorised to do so.
11.6.7 A pilot in command operating under the IFR who desires a visual
approach and is satisfied that the visual conditions as per para
11.6.1 can be met must report VISUAL. A pilot who is unable to
continue a visual approach which has been authorised by ATC
must immediately advise ATC.
11.6.8 A pilot reporting VISUAL, may initially be given a clearance below
the LSALT to a specific altitude in the following terms:
a. by day, DESCEND TO (level) VISUAL; or
b. by night, WHEN ESTABLISHED IN THE CIRCLING AREA,
DESCEND TO (level) VISUAL.
11.6.9 A pilot descending to and maintaining a specific altitude visually
below the LSALT must comply with the minimum altitude requirements
detailed at para 11.6.5.
11.6.10 A pilot may be assigned the responsibility to follow another arriving
aircraft which he/she has reported sighting. When assigned
this responsibility, the pilot must maintain separation from and not
overtake that aircraft. In this circumstance, the pilot is also responsible
for providing his/her own wake turbulence separation except
that ATC is responsible for wake turbulence separation between
landing aircraft. If sighting is subsequently lost, the pilot must advise
ATC immediately.
Its a huge concern, although not supprising, the number of posters not aware of the requirements of a visual app.
Geez this is bread and butter stuff.Always inverted, the plan should be in accordance with the above.
Nivo, WRONG
Mig3 its "easy" only if you know what you are talking about!
Of course you could request a clerarance to do something different.
Last edited by RENURPP; 6th May 2009 at 00:30.
Its a huge concern that most of the posters are not aware of the requirements of a visual app
mig3
"Cleared visual approach" at night, means do as you please, but YOU are responsible for terrain clearance. So your options are either to request tracking to intercept the runway heading and descend on the PAPI/VASI, ILS etc
The answer to that question based on the information given is no.4. There is no other reference to aligning yourself with the landing runway, where the final approach fix is and whether or not you request any further clearances. If you continue on a track 170 to a 190 QDM runway then your only option is no.4. You may then descend and fly a circuit back for the landing runway.
There is also a reference in the DME/GPS arrivals section in Jepp Terminal/ENR1.5(?) that states something along the lines of 'clearance for a DME/GPS arrival allows you to manoeuvre to intercept final approach' so that would come into play if you weren't cleared for a visual approach. I know that has nothing to do with this particular question but it is something that many people forget about so keep that in mind for real world scenarios. I don't have my Jepps with me so can't give you that reference unfortunately.
Last edited by Dragun; 5th May 2009 at 23:58.
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RENURPP you are correct. I was mistaking operations at a controlled aerodrome with a CTAF. Obviously if you are "cleared visual approach" you are not at a CTAF.
Thanks for the detailed response.
cheers,
Nivo
Thanks for the detailed response.
cheers,
Nivo
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descend on the steps from the DME/GPS arrival procedure and when within 5nm manoeuvre onto the runway heading;
RENURPP, I agree, some very concerning responses there!
brns2,
I am sorry I didn't answer your question in my first post.
The way i see it you have a couple of options.
I am sorry I didn't answer your question in my first post.
Should approach be telling me i am "cleared visual approach, and maneuver as required to intercept final"? if not should i be asking them?
Last edited by RENURPP; 6th May 2009 at 01:55.
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Ask ATC for a clearance to intercept final so you can comply with answers 1, 2 or 3. You cannot descend below MSA etc...
cheers,
Nivo
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RENURPP,
Thanks mate thats what I thought and was just looking for confirmation.
As i have been put in this situation a couple of times at a controlled aerodrome, where they have cleared me to the VOR and then at 20ish miles said "cleared visual approach"... I know that the final/localiser is just there...
But technicaly im not "established" on 1,2 or 3so i cant start my descent or deviate from track until within the circling area.
Unless as you say, im cleared to intercept final outside the circling area
Thanks!
Thanks mate thats what I thought and was just looking for confirmation.
As i have been put in this situation a couple of times at a controlled aerodrome, where they have cleared me to the VOR and then at 20ish miles said "cleared visual approach"... I know that the final/localiser is just there...
But technicaly im not "established" on 1,2 or 3so i cant start my descent or deviate from track until within the circling area.
Unless as you say, im cleared to intercept final outside the circling area
Thanks!
Nvo
yes it is, BUT if you did as you said which is
without requesting a clearance you would be receiving a please explain. At a CTAF no problem, thats another story.
In fact at a CTAF you can track to a "5 mile final" when ever you want as long as you are in G airspace. 25nm is simply what the MSA is based on.
With the exception of the clearance (I assumed CTAF incorrectly), this is the same as my answer!
Maneuver at 25nm MSA until aligned with 190,
In fact at a CTAF you can track to a "5 mile final" when ever you want as long as you are in G airspace. 25nm is simply what the MSA is based on.
Does any body know of a case where the NZ system of night visual approaches and descending as you like (what mig3 suggested) had ended up in CFIT? (Not a smart arse question. I would genuinely like to know)
Although the Australian system makes sense in black hole conditions, or in any circumstance where any doubt exists re terrain, being free to descend when the PIC is happy to when the terrain is clearly visible should not be a problem.
One particular approach I do regularly (Aus) is incredibly painful as you can see damned well that you are over the city - no black holes, and you can see exactly where the ground is, yet the DME steps are very restrictive and require quite a steep descent at the last minute.
It looks to me like another case of regulating common sense to the point that pilots no longer use it - and then lose it
Although the Australian system makes sense in black hole conditions, or in any circumstance where any doubt exists re terrain, being free to descend when the PIC is happy to when the terrain is clearly visible should not be a problem.
One particular approach I do regularly (Aus) is incredibly painful as you can see damned well that you are over the city - no black holes, and you can see exactly where the ground is, yet the DME steps are very restrictive and require quite a steep descent at the last minute.
It looks to me like another case of regulating common sense to the point that pilots no longer use it - and then lose it
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One further 'PS' to RENURPP's last valid post - bear in mind that if you are OCTA approaching a CTAF and choose to manoever outside the 25nm MSA your track LSALT may no longer be relevant and if you are using that for terrain separation be careful as a higher value (like Grid LSALT) may now apply!
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brns2,
The answer to your question is 4, but to give you more room to manoeuver, you can:
1. Request direct tracking to a 5/7/10 NM final, and
2. Use a circling area applicable to a higher category of aircraft. For example, you may be in a cat B aircraft, but you can use the cat C circling area which is 4.2 NM. Or the cat D, which is 5.28 NM.
The cat E is 6.94 NM but from a quick glance through my approach plates, there don't appear to be too many aerodromes in Australia that have been surveyed for circling areas of that size.
The restriction on using the higher category circling area is that you must, obviously, observe the altitude restrictions associated with the larger circling areas. Those altitudes are higher, of course, than your cat B.
The answer to your question is 4, but to give you more room to manoeuver, you can:
1. Request direct tracking to a 5/7/10 NM final, and
2. Use a circling area applicable to a higher category of aircraft. For example, you may be in a cat B aircraft, but you can use the cat C circling area which is 4.2 NM. Or the cat D, which is 5.28 NM.
The cat E is 6.94 NM but from a quick glance through my approach plates, there don't appear to be too many aerodromes in Australia that have been surveyed for circling areas of that size.
The restriction on using the higher category circling area is that you must, obviously, observe the altitude restrictions associated with the larger circling areas. Those altitudes are higher, of course, than your cat B.
BRNS 2,
Yeah, there was some worrying stuff at the start of this thread, but it seems to have settled out now!
I understand your question and the reasons for asking it, and can't help piping up here with my own little bit of input - hope it's helpful.
From your original post:
You are 100% correct in what you say about not being established on centre line, so that rules out 1,2,3 as options. By elimination, you have number 4. But there's a little bit more to say about that - when cleared visual approach, your previous level requirement of 2000 is removed, and you can in fact descend IAW DME/GPS arrival steps. Whether you can actually do this will depend on a number of things, like...
Do you even have a DME or GPS? (probably, but not stated)
Are the steps helpful in providing further descent? (depends on local terrain)
etc...
Ignore anyone babbling about manoeuvering inside 5 miles etc - YOU ARE NOT CONDUCTING THE DGA, just using it to guide further descent during a VISUAL APPROACH - none of the approach speed restrictions apply, and that tracking restriction similarly does not apply.
A visual approach has TRACKING, and LEVEL requirements...
I hope that answers your originally posted question, and in fact I'm pretty sure most of that has been said already by others.
PRACTICALLY, (and I fly a similar situation often in my own work) when you get "cleared visual approach" -
1) if DGA steps and/or minima are available to you and "useful", I would bore in, continuing along your previously cleared track to the VOR, using the DGA plate and DME/GPS for further descent. This will result in manoeuvering closer in, and give you a "reasonable" height to continue descent from - once inside your circling area (speed reductions depend on the type you're flying, but should be well possible with short level segment and... well you are a pilot you'll suss all that out)
2) Ask (as previous posters have said) for tracking to final from present position. Remember, you are cleared visual approach now, but you still have a TRACKING requirement - until specifically released from it - lets say, by a further tracking instruction from ATC. You'll probably get it when you ask, so you may then intercept final and proceed with any of your other (1,2,3) listed options as available (does your ship have ILS?, are you at Sydney? etc) When you are tracking to intercept final, you now can also make use of the 25nm MSA if you like, though you have described getting your "cleared visual approach" from about 20nm and manoeuvering is not extensive - so 2000 is probably plenty until established on final (at 10ish nm, and proceeding IAW 1,2,3 as above.
7 miles is about 2000' for a typical approach path... Also remember the DME is usually NOT at the threshhold! You may be inside your CAT B circling area, when indicating for instance DME 3.5 or something like that.
OK, that's enough I reckon you are well and truly across visual approaches by now!! Have a plan, have fun with it, AND safe flying
CR.
Yeah, there was some worrying stuff at the start of this thread, but it seems to have settled out now!
I understand your question and the reasons for asking it, and can't help piping up here with my own little bit of input - hope it's helpful.
From your original post:
You are 100% correct in what you say about not being established on centre line, so that rules out 1,2,3 as options. By elimination, you have number 4. But there's a little bit more to say about that - when cleared visual approach, your previous level requirement of 2000 is removed, and you can in fact descend IAW DME/GPS arrival steps. Whether you can actually do this will depend on a number of things, like...
Do you even have a DME or GPS? (probably, but not stated)
Are the steps helpful in providing further descent? (depends on local terrain)
etc...
Ignore anyone babbling about manoeuvering inside 5 miles etc - YOU ARE NOT CONDUCTING THE DGA, just using it to guide further descent during a VISUAL APPROACH - none of the approach speed restrictions apply, and that tracking restriction similarly does not apply.
A visual approach has TRACKING, and LEVEL requirements...
I hope that answers your originally posted question, and in fact I'm pretty sure most of that has been said already by others.
PRACTICALLY, (and I fly a similar situation often in my own work) when you get "cleared visual approach" -
1) if DGA steps and/or minima are available to you and "useful", I would bore in, continuing along your previously cleared track to the VOR, using the DGA plate and DME/GPS for further descent. This will result in manoeuvering closer in, and give you a "reasonable" height to continue descent from - once inside your circling area (speed reductions depend on the type you're flying, but should be well possible with short level segment and... well you are a pilot you'll suss all that out)
2) Ask (as previous posters have said) for tracking to final from present position. Remember, you are cleared visual approach now, but you still have a TRACKING requirement - until specifically released from it - lets say, by a further tracking instruction from ATC. You'll probably get it when you ask, so you may then intercept final and proceed with any of your other (1,2,3) listed options as available (does your ship have ILS?, are you at Sydney? etc) When you are tracking to intercept final, you now can also make use of the 25nm MSA if you like, though you have described getting your "cleared visual approach" from about 20nm and manoeuvering is not extensive - so 2000 is probably plenty until established on final (at 10ish nm, and proceeding IAW 1,2,3 as above.
7 miles is about 2000' for a typical approach path... Also remember the DME is usually NOT at the threshhold! You may be inside your CAT B circling area, when indicating for instance DME 3.5 or something like that.
OK, that's enough I reckon you are well and truly across visual approaches by now!! Have a plan, have fun with it, AND safe flying
CR.