Visual Approach
 

Scenario:

I am tracking 170 To the destanations VOR, and cleared to descend to 2,000. I am at 15dme when im "cleared visual approach" at night.

The runway track is 190. When may i descend?

1) 5nm if established on PAPI
2) 7nm if on a PAPI (on an ILS runway)
3) 10nm if on the ILS (14nm at sydney)
4) When within the circling area, 2.66nm for cat b

1,2,3 are not possible as im not established on final

The only way i can see of doing it is #4. But losing 2,000ft in under 3nm is not possible.

Should approach be telling me i am "cleared visual approach, and maneuver as required to intercept final"? if not should i be asking them?

Maneuver at 25nm MSA until aligned with 190, then choose 1-3 as appropriate.

Nivo :ok:

You could also use a larger circling area as applicable to higher performance categories, so long as the relevant minima are still met.

Surely you would have actually requested the visual app, therefore should have a plan...

different rules in the big country AI, I've just coverted my licence and there was some serious study to be done..one of us is ICAO but I'm not sure which!

I would ignore some of the previous advice.
Its a huge concern, although not supprising, the number of posters not aware of the requirements of a visual app. := Geez this is bread and butter stuff.
Always inverted, the plan should be in accordance with the above.
Nivo, WRONG :confused:
Mig3 its "easy" only if you know what you are talking about! :rolleyes:

Of course you could request a clerarance to do something different.

I agree completely.

mig3

Honestly if you believe that then good luck to you. It boggles the mind how little you must know about anything else if you don't even know the basic conditions of a visual approach at night.

The answer to that question based on the information given is no.4. There is no other reference to aligning yourself with the landing runway, where the final approach fix is and whether or not you request any further clearances. If you continue on a track 170 to a 190 QDM runway then your only option is no.4. You may then descend and fly a circuit back for the landing runway.

There is also a reference in the DME/GPS arrivals section in Jepp Terminal/ENR1.5(?) that states something along the lines of 'clearance for a DME/GPS arrival allows you to manoeuvre to intercept final approach' so that would come into play if you weren't cleared for a visual approach. I know that has nothing to do with this particular question but it is something that many people forget about so keep that in mind for real world scenarios. I don't have my Jepps with me so can't give you that reference unfortunately.

RENURPP you are correct. I was mistaking operations at a controlled aerodrome with a CTAF. Obviously if you are "cleared visual approach" you are not at a CTAF.

Thanks for the detailed response.

cheers,

Nivo

Dragun, this link is to AIP. Handy when we don't have our books.

Airservices Australia - Aeronautical Information Package (AIP)

Descend visually and maintain your own terrain clearance, if you are unfamiliar with the area easiest solution is to continue carrying out the approach.

just to point out you can not manouvre inside the FAF!!! So manouvring would need to be done prior to the FAF wherever that is published on the chart.

RENURPP, I agree, some very concerning responses there!

brns2,

I am sorry I didn't answer your question in my first post.

The way i see it you have a couple of options.

With the exception of the clearance (I assumed CTAF incorrectly), this is the same as my answer!

cheers,

Nivo

RENURPP,

Thanks mate thats what I thought and was just looking for confirmation.

As i have been put in this situation a couple of times at a controlled aerodrome, where they have cleared me to the VOR and then at 20ish miles said "cleared visual approach"... I know that the final/localiser is just there...

But technicaly im not "established" on 1,2 or 3so i cant start my descent or deviate from track until within the circling area.

Unless as you say, im cleared to intercept final outside the circling area

Thanks!

Nvo

yes it is, BUT if you did as you said which is without requesting a clearance you would be receiving a please explain. At a CTAF no problem, thats another story.

In fact at a CTAF you can track to a "5 mile final" when ever you want as long as you are in G airspace. 25nm is simply what the MSA is based on.

Does any body know of a case where the NZ system of night visual approaches and descending as you like (what mig3 suggested) had ended up in CFIT? (Not a smart arse question. I would genuinely like to know)

Although the Australian system makes sense in black hole conditions, or in any circumstance where any doubt exists re terrain, being free to descend when the PIC is happy to when the terrain is clearly visible should not be a problem.

One particular approach I do regularly (Aus) is incredibly painful as you can see damned well that you are over the city - no black holes, and you can see exactly where the ground is, yet the DME steps are very restrictive and require quite a steep descent at the last minute.

It looks to me like another case of regulating common sense to the point that pilots no longer use it - and then lose it :ugh:

One further 'PS' to RENURPP's last valid post - bear in mind that if you are OCTA approaching a CTAF and choose to manoever outside the 25nm MSA your track LSALT may no longer be relevant and if you are using that for terrain separation be careful as a higher value (like Grid LSALT) may now apply!

Capt Nomad, on your arrival, above Australian LSA of 8200ft until inside 25nm, keep your hands off Padmé. She's mine! := :}

brns2,

The answer to your question is 4, but to give you more room to manoeuver, you can:

1. Request direct tracking to a 5/7/10 NM final, and
2. Use a circling area applicable to a higher category of aircraft. For example, you may be in a cat B aircraft, but you can use the cat C circling area which is 4.2 NM. Or the cat D, which is 5.28 NM.

The cat E is 6.94 NM but from a quick glance through my approach plates, there don't appear to be too many aerodromes in Australia that have been surveyed for circling areas of that size.

The restriction on using the higher category circling area is that you must, obviously, observe the altitude restrictions associated with the larger circling areas. Those altitudes are higher, of course, than your cat B.

BRNS 2,

Yeah, there was some worrying stuff at the start of this thread, but it seems to have settled out now! :ok:

I understand your question and the reasons for asking it, and can't help piping up here with my own little bit of input - hope it's helpful.

From your original post:
You are 100% correct in what you say about not being established on centre line, so that rules out 1,2,3 as options. By elimination, you have number 4. But there's a little bit more to say about that - when cleared visual approach, your previous level requirement of 2000 is removed, and you can in fact descend IAW DME/GPS arrival steps. Whether you can actually do this will depend on a number of things, like...
Do you even have a DME or GPS? (probably, but not stated)
Are the steps helpful in providing further descent? (depends on local terrain)
etc...

Ignore anyone babbling about manoeuvering inside 5 miles etc - YOU ARE NOT CONDUCTING THE DGA, just using it to guide further descent during a VISUAL APPROACH - none of the approach speed restrictions apply, and that tracking restriction similarly does not apply.

A visual approach has TRACKING, and LEVEL requirements...

I hope that answers your originally posted question, and in fact I'm pretty sure most of that has been said already by others.

PRACTICALLY, (and I fly a similar situation often in my own work) when you get "cleared visual approach" -

1) if DGA steps and/or minima are available to you and "useful", I would bore in, continuing along your previously cleared track to the VOR, using the DGA plate and DME/GPS for further descent. This will result in manoeuvering closer in, and give you a "reasonable" height to continue descent from - once inside your circling area (speed reductions depend on the type you're flying, but should be well possible with short level segment and... well you are a pilot you'll suss all that out)

2) Ask (as previous posters have said) for tracking to final from present position. Remember, you are cleared visual approach now, but you still have a TRACKING requirement - until specifically released from it - lets say, by a further tracking instruction from ATC. You'll probably get it when you ask, so you may then intercept final and proceed with any of your other (1,2,3) listed options as available (does your ship have ILS?, are you at Sydney? etc) When you are tracking to intercept final, you now can also make use of the 25nm MSA if you like, though you have described getting your "cleared visual approach" from about 20nm and manoeuvering is not extensive - so 2000 is probably plenty until established on final (at 10ish nm, and proceeding IAW 1,2,3 as above.

7 miles is about 2000' for a typical approach path... Also remember the DME is usually NOT at the threshhold! You may be inside your CAT B circling area, when indicating for instance DME 3.5 or something like that.

OK, that's enough I reckon you are well and truly across visual approaches by now!! Have a plan, have fun with it, AND safe flying

CR.