IFR Departure - Climb to MSA/LSALT within 3nm?
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IFR Departure - Climb to MSA/LSALT within 3nm?
Been trying to find the reference in the AIP regarding an IFR departure from a non controlled aerodrome and the requirement to climb to the MSA or LSALT if same by 3nm. Found the reference for on track by 5nm, been searching AIP ENR 1.5 but I guess my eyes are going.
Anyone got an idea where to find it?
Anyone got an idea where to find it?
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Guptar,
There is no real specific reference to your question but if you refer to GEN 3.3-16 Para 3.6 it states the rules somewhat to your situation. In particular the bit that says can only be "below LSALT during climb after departure".
In order for you to protect yourself at night then you would have to climb up to your 10nm MSA, 25nm MSA or track LSALT whichever is the lower within the circling area and then depart off. The only real concern here is if you became IMC below the MDA but the conditions would have to be pretty horendous for that and if the conditions were that bad then you would have to give yourself a good brief before you started to roll down the runway in relation to terrain/obstacles in the area.
Bear in mind as well that for most GA planes the take off minima is 300'AGL/2000M.
Take care up there especially in night IMC conditions.
BOK
There is no real specific reference to your question but if you refer to GEN 3.3-16 Para 3.6 it states the rules somewhat to your situation. In particular the bit that says can only be "below LSALT during climb after departure".
In order for you to protect yourself at night then you would have to climb up to your 10nm MSA, 25nm MSA or track LSALT whichever is the lower within the circling area and then depart off. The only real concern here is if you became IMC below the MDA but the conditions would have to be pretty horendous for that and if the conditions were that bad then you would have to give yourself a good brief before you started to roll down the runway in relation to terrain/obstacles in the area.
Bear in mind as well that for most GA planes the take off minima is 300'AGL/2000M.
Take care up there especially in night IMC conditions.
BOK
requirement to climb to the MSA or LSALT if same by 3nm
I was always taught to determine a safe route/procedure to depart a non-controlled aerodrome so as maintain terrain clearance in the climb - and particularly in the case of an engine failure.
Dr
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Can I also remind you all of the rule in AIP's ENR 1.5-28 Note 4 (a) which basically states words to this effect:
Terrain clearance is assured until reaching either enroute LSALT or dept aerodrome MSA and this can be complied with should engine failure occur in multi engine aircraft anytime after lift off or encountering non visual conditions.
BOK
Terrain clearance is assured until reaching either enroute LSALT or dept aerodrome MSA and this can be complied with should engine failure occur in multi engine aircraft anytime after lift off or encountering non visual conditions.
BOK
NEVER depart if you cant get safely back in
I will take-off with 300' - 2 km in a twin or a single. Gives me the option of a low level circuit if there is a problem - but once in IMC, I sure as hell ain't gonna get back in there.
Kinda interesting to be sitting on the ground at Atherton waiting for 300' ceiling to TO - and watch a croppie coming and going at 50'.
Dr
Last edited by ForkTailedDrKiller; 19th Apr 2009 at 13:54.
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My personal minimums are far greater than 300'/2000M, however when asked during a CIRSE renewal how I'd depart from COOMA in an emergency situation, my response was to climb and remain in the circling area up to MSA.
The ATO pointed out that you have terrain clearance when you fly the reverse of a GPS ARRIVAL i.e. distance/altitude in a sector from a reference point, which I then had to perform.
The ATO pointed out that you have terrain clearance when you fly the reverse of a GPS ARRIVAL i.e. distance/altitude in a sector from a reference point, which I then had to perform.
I was taught that there are a few ways to depart non-controlled airports when in IMC or at night.
1.Remain in circling area until MSA/LSALT.
2.Conduct the published missed approach if applicable.
3.Conduct the GPS ARR procedure in reverse if aircraft can maintain appropriate climb gradient.
4.Conduct the NDB or VOR in reverse if applicable and aircraft can maintain appropriate climb gradient.
5.Climb out on a pilot calculated track and able to maintain terrain clearance during this procedure.
Obviously a careful pre departure brief is essential in all departure scenarios.
1.Remain in circling area until MSA/LSALT.
2.Conduct the published missed approach if applicable.
3.Conduct the GPS ARR procedure in reverse if aircraft can maintain appropriate climb gradient.
4.Conduct the NDB or VOR in reverse if applicable and aircraft can maintain appropriate climb gradient.
5.Climb out on a pilot calculated track and able to maintain terrain clearance during this procedure.
Obviously a careful pre departure brief is essential in all departure scenarios.
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The ATO pointed out that you have terrain clearance when you fly the reverse of a GPS ARRIVAL i.e. distance/altitude in a sector from a reference point, which I then had to perform.
"The back of the approach departure shouldn’t be used or mentioned in a renewal as it isn’t legal" I have done it in a renewal and the ATO was less than impressed!
(SECIR - are a different story (climb out or departure) when the donk dies in the soup you don’t have too many options unless you have pretty dam good local knowledge.)
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Terrain clearance is assured until reaching either enroute LSALT or dept aerodrome MSA and this can be complied with should engine failure occur in multi engine aircraft anytime after lift off or encountering non visual conditions.
I will take-off with 300' - 2 km in a twin or a single. Gives me the option of a low level circuit if there is a problem - but once in IMC, I sure as hell ain't gonna get back in there.
Pretty dopey to take off at the minima in ANY single or light piston twin without guaranteed performance regardless of the regs!
Grandpa Aerotart
So Green Goblin complying with the regs is 'dopey'?
So how many days would you sit waiting for 'acceptable' weather, whatever you define subjectively as 'acceptable', to mitigate against the utterly tiny chance that an engine might fail just airborne?
As opposed to 10nm down the track...or 20?
Do you hide in your house when its raining outside or do you assess the risk of a fatal car accident/strike by lightning, tree falling on you, run over by car, electrocuted by fallen power lines differently?
I am struggling to remember the last EFATO into low weather fatality in Australia yet you have judged it to be 'dopey'.
Guptar et al there is NO such guidance. There is guidance on minimum obstacle clearance required on the proposed flight path and there is guidance defining that flight path but the rest is up to you. You can do ABSOLUTELY anything you like as long as you comply with minimum obstacle clearance criteria.
It just takes some thought.
If someone, including an ATO, is unhappy with your plan listen to his...might even be better...but if they are just trying to impose their subjective choice over yours, or worse insist that their subjective choice is the ONLY legal option, challenge them to prove it..."that is interesting can show me where it says that?"
My personal preference at unfamiliar aerodromes was to follow the missed approach path for the runway approach on the runway I was using. Equally I might just blast straight on track at a familiar aerodrome on flat terrain.
So how many days would you sit waiting for 'acceptable' weather, whatever you define subjectively as 'acceptable', to mitigate against the utterly tiny chance that an engine might fail just airborne?
As opposed to 10nm down the track...or 20?
Do you hide in your house when its raining outside or do you assess the risk of a fatal car accident/strike by lightning, tree falling on you, run over by car, electrocuted by fallen power lines differently?
I am struggling to remember the last EFATO into low weather fatality in Australia yet you have judged it to be 'dopey'.
Guptar et al there is NO such guidance. There is guidance on minimum obstacle clearance required on the proposed flight path and there is guidance defining that flight path but the rest is up to you. You can do ABSOLUTELY anything you like as long as you comply with minimum obstacle clearance criteria.
It just takes some thought.
If someone, including an ATO, is unhappy with your plan listen to his...might even be better...but if they are just trying to impose their subjective choice over yours, or worse insist that their subjective choice is the ONLY legal option, challenge them to prove it..."that is interesting can show me where it says that?"
My personal preference at unfamiliar aerodromes was to follow the missed approach path for the runway approach on the runway I was using. Equally I might just blast straight on track at a familiar aerodrome on flat terrain.
Last edited by Chimbu chuckles; 20th Apr 2009 at 04:40.
AIP ENR 1-1
4.9 Terrain and Obstacle Clearance
Obstacle/terrain avoidance while below the LSALT or MSA, as applicable, is a pilot responsibility except in the circumstances described in para 4.9.1.
4.9.1 ATC is responsible for terrain clearance when an aircraft has been assigned a level using ATS surveillance service terrain clearance procedures until:
a. the pilot is assigned the responsibility for maintaining such
clearance visually, or
b. a visual or instrument approach is commenced.
So, from OCTA, how you get to LSALT/MSA is your responsibility. Where LSALT/MSA is in CTA, I clear acft as follows (Mareeba Innisfail for example) "Track as required, climb 7000, when ready track direct IFL. This allows the pilot to track as he needs to, to avoid terrain and then direct when he is satisfied first part has been complied with.
4.9 Terrain and Obstacle Clearance
Obstacle/terrain avoidance while below the LSALT or MSA, as applicable, is a pilot responsibility except in the circumstances described in para 4.9.1.
4.9.1 ATC is responsible for terrain clearance when an aircraft has been assigned a level using ATS surveillance service terrain clearance procedures until:
a. the pilot is assigned the responsibility for maintaining such
clearance visually, or
b. a visual or instrument approach is commenced.
So, from OCTA, how you get to LSALT/MSA is your responsibility. Where LSALT/MSA is in CTA, I clear acft as follows (Mareeba Innisfail for example) "Track as required, climb 7000, when ready track direct IFL. This allows the pilot to track as he needs to, to avoid terrain and then direct when he is satisfied first part has been complied with.
A failure in a single which may dictate a hasty return to the departure AD would be an alternator failure or smoke in the cockpit. For this reason, my personal take off minima in a single would be approach minima.
"Smoke in the cockpit" - bit hard to see how the appropriate response in a single would differ from that in a twin (ie park it as soon as possible). Therefore, are you suggesting that appropriate TO minima for a light twin should be the approach minima?
Dr
So Green Goblin complying with the regs is 'dopey'?
So how many days would you sit waiting for 'acceptable' weather, whatever you define subjectively as 'acceptable', to mitigate against the utterly tiny chance that an engine might fail just airborne?
So how many days would you sit waiting for 'acceptable' weather, whatever you define subjectively as 'acceptable', to mitigate against the utterly tiny chance that an engine might fail just airborne?
Its much more comforting when you are flying something that can give you the performance you require on one engine however to satisfy 20.7.1B
A problem with following an instrument procedure in reverse is that the design gradient may be as high as 6.5% (600fpm at 100kts) in the final segment and 8% (800fpm at 100kts) in the initial. And this is more likely the case if significant obstacles are located nearby. Few light twins and even some bigger ones would struggle to climb at this rate following an engine failure.
Also the approach path may not follow the lowest terrain as it has to account for obstacles in both the approach and missed approach path, this will be more the case if the approach has been runway aligned.
As stated earlier the missed approach path only guarantees 100ft clearance at 2.5% if the missed approach is commenced from the MAPt at MDA.
If you are departing into IMC from an airport with significant surrounding terrain work out suitable departure/escape routes. Regular operators to such places would have generated a company departure procedure to be used both in normal and preformance loss situations. If no suitable paths exists then just climb in the circling area and depart once clear of critical obstacles.
Also the approach path may not follow the lowest terrain as it has to account for obstacles in both the approach and missed approach path, this will be more the case if the approach has been runway aligned.
As stated earlier the missed approach path only guarantees 100ft clearance at 2.5% if the missed approach is commenced from the MAPt at MDA.
If you are departing into IMC from an airport with significant surrounding terrain work out suitable departure/escape routes. Regular operators to such places would have generated a company departure procedure to be used both in normal and preformance loss situations. If no suitable paths exists then just climb in the circling area and depart once clear of critical obstacles.
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Guptar, back in the days when men were real men and had to hold a Class 1 Instrument Rating, do 10 wpm Morse and renew every 6 months - the 3 miles rule did apply.
Since the advent of Pans Ops, the 3 mile requirement has been both superseded and forgotten (unless you're an ATO/FOI who hasn't kept up with the times)
There is/was a reference in Jepp for 3nm circling area dimensions for pre Pans Ops runways, and from 1700m(1800m?) lengths the tangent rule applies (using a DGA), but I don't have them in front of me because I'm on holidays (and CRAFT is setting in). However, this applies to some arrivals but not departures.
Haven't really looked lately, but none of the places I operate to are pre-Pans Ops 4 anyway.
Hope this helps.
Since the advent of Pans Ops, the 3 mile requirement has been both superseded and forgotten (unless you're an ATO/FOI who hasn't kept up with the times)
There is/was a reference in Jepp for 3nm circling area dimensions for pre Pans Ops runways, and from 1700m(1800m?) lengths the tangent rule applies (using a DGA), but I don't have them in front of me because I'm on holidays
(and CRAFT is setting in). However, this applies to some arrivals but not departures.Haven't really looked lately, but none of the places I operate to are pre-Pans Ops 4 anyway.
Hope this helps.
Last edited by Hugh Jarse; 20th Apr 2009 at 20:57.