ADSB...Seems to work OK in Canada...
Thread Starter
ADSB...Seems to work OK in Canada Too...
From 'Avweb' USA site,
ADS-B Proving Itself Over Hudson Bay
ADS-B has been in operation over a vast area of northern Canada for more than two months and air traffic services provider Nav Canada and the technology provider Sensis say it's working as advertised. While the 250,000 square nautical miles covered by the system is scantily populated and encompasses Hudson Bay, its high-altitude airspace is used by 35,000 flights between Europe and North America every year. Until earlier this year, those flights simply dropped off controllers' radar until they emerged hours later on the other side. With ADS-B, Nav Canada controllers can accurately track anything above 29,000 feet over the whole area and that means more efficient use of the routes. "With the accuracy of Sensis ADS-B, we can maximize airspace capacity by reducing separation standards from the current procedural separation of 80 miles to the five-mile separation standard now used in airspace with surveillance coverage," said Nav Canada spokesman Rudy Kellar.
The five-mile separation allows the most direct routing for almost all flights and Nav Canada estimates that will save 4.5 million gallons of fuel and 50,000 tons of carbon emissions a year, once all aircraft using the airspace are equipped for ADS-B. Nav Canada is expanding ADS-B to areas Labrador and Baffin Island that don't have radar coverage.
The area covered by the system being 'scantily populated' sounds familiar...
ADS-B Proving Itself Over Hudson Bay
ADS-B has been in operation over a vast area of northern Canada for more than two months and air traffic services provider Nav Canada and the technology provider Sensis say it's working as advertised. While the 250,000 square nautical miles covered by the system is scantily populated and encompasses Hudson Bay, its high-altitude airspace is used by 35,000 flights between Europe and North America every year. Until earlier this year, those flights simply dropped off controllers' radar until they emerged hours later on the other side. With ADS-B, Nav Canada controllers can accurately track anything above 29,000 feet over the whole area and that means more efficient use of the routes. "With the accuracy of Sensis ADS-B, we can maximize airspace capacity by reducing separation standards from the current procedural separation of 80 miles to the five-mile separation standard now used in airspace with surveillance coverage," said Nav Canada spokesman Rudy Kellar.
The five-mile separation allows the most direct routing for almost all flights and Nav Canada estimates that will save 4.5 million gallons of fuel and 50,000 tons of carbon emissions a year, once all aircraft using the airspace are equipped for ADS-B. Nav Canada is expanding ADS-B to areas Labrador and Baffin Island that don't have radar coverage.
The area covered by the system being 'scantily populated' sounds familiar...
Last edited by Ex FSO GRIFFO; 15th Apr 2009 at 10:57.
All,
And doing what ADS-B is very good for, providing a "radar like" display for high level traffic from suitably equipped aircraft, just like Australia, ----- which DOES NOT mean Canada is about to "mandate" ADS-B for low level GA traffic -.---- again for the same reasons as Australia ----- "nice to have" and "must have" for small aircraft/ low level operations are not the same thing.
In fact, Transport Canada does a rather good job of keeping "rules" to a minimum for aviation, in contrast to the general Australian approach.
Tootle pip!!
And doing what ADS-B is very good for, providing a "radar like" display for high level traffic from suitably equipped aircraft, just like Australia, ----- which DOES NOT mean Canada is about to "mandate" ADS-B for low level GA traffic -.---- again for the same reasons as Australia ----- "nice to have" and "must have" for small aircraft/ low level operations are not the same thing.
In fact, Transport Canada does a rather good job of keeping "rules" to a minimum for aviation, in contrast to the general Australian approach.
Tootle pip!!
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I can certainly understand why one might want enhanced surveillance over areas of North Canada and the Hudson bay area is really remote.
Northern Canada is a far cry from the benign Australian environment, our Designated Remote areas can be tackled with a supply of water.
There is a great difference in Northern Canada, survival suits are required kit and 10 minutes outside can turn one into a statue for most of the year.
But does low lecvel ADSB work around Hudson Bay ??? are there adequate ground VHF stations to have reliable reporting below 5000 ft and how are the VHf stations communicating with the ATC service, microwave links are useless in severe weather which would seem to be the time they might be most needed, airbourne ice chrystals screw microwave propogation and it is hard to run fibre optic cable across ice and snow with any thoughts of reliabilty/serviceability and satellite services suffer from the same issues as microwaves in blizzards.
Northern Canada is a far cry from the benign Australian environment, our Designated Remote areas can be tackled with a supply of water.
There is a great difference in Northern Canada, survival suits are required kit and 10 minutes outside can turn one into a statue for most of the year.
But does low lecvel ADSB work around Hudson Bay ??? are there adequate ground VHF stations to have reliable reporting below 5000 ft and how are the VHf stations communicating with the ATC service, microwave links are useless in severe weather which would seem to be the time they might be most needed, airbourne ice chrystals screw microwave propogation and it is hard to run fibre optic cable across ice and snow with any thoughts of reliabilty/serviceability and satellite services suffer from the same issues as microwaves in blizzards.
Thread Starter
'No Wuckin Furries' Jab....
Ive got the broadest shoulders.....or other parts...
Hey 'Joker',
We aren't exactly in the land of blizzards etc 'here', and I would reckon that there are enuf 'communities' around to have the required power supply and VHF gear for good coverage at say, 5,000' in some to 10,000 in others, where there ain't nutin now....
Cheers
Ive got the broadest shoulders.....or other parts...
Hey 'Joker',
We aren't exactly in the land of blizzards etc 'here', and I would reckon that there are enuf 'communities' around to have the required power supply and VHF gear for good coverage at say, 5,000' in some to 10,000 in others, where there ain't nutin now....
Cheers
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Here we go again.
First off why would somebody get hot under the collar about the Avweb blurb? Secondly why does it compare to anything envisaged in Australia except that it is a valuable tool above FL290 for ATC and the perceived safety of the ignorant travelling public? And thirdly what has it got to do with low level ADSB which is not on the current agenda in Australia?
Nobody I know has objected to ADSB as it is now proposed. The airlines may have a concern but that’s their worry. Perhaps it's they who will get hot under the collar?
There is a small noise about using non certified ADSB equipment to help the timid navigate without worry of mid air collision at Muttaburra, but this depends upon it being mandated for optimum performance.
I wait with enthusiasm the announcement that Airservices or CASA will allow any non certified equipment to interface with ATC equipment let alone mandate it.
In the interim a mode C transponder and TCAS works, so those owners with a Jabiru who want this feature simply need to purchase a TCAS.
Or open their eyes and look out the window.
(or just stay in bed if it's all that dangerous).
First off why would somebody get hot under the collar about the Avweb blurb? Secondly why does it compare to anything envisaged in Australia except that it is a valuable tool above FL290 for ATC and the perceived safety of the ignorant travelling public? And thirdly what has it got to do with low level ADSB which is not on the current agenda in Australia?
Nobody I know has objected to ADSB as it is now proposed. The airlines may have a concern but that’s their worry. Perhaps it's they who will get hot under the collar?
There is a small noise about using non certified ADSB equipment to help the timid navigate without worry of mid air collision at Muttaburra, but this depends upon it being mandated for optimum performance.
I wait with enthusiasm the announcement that Airservices or CASA will allow any non certified equipment to interface with ATC equipment let alone mandate it.
In the interim a mode C transponder and TCAS works, so those owners with a Jabiru who want this feature simply need to purchase a TCAS.
Or open their eyes and look out the window.
(or just stay in bed if it's all that dangerous).
Joker
Really?
You'd better tell the comms techs where I spend half the year.
The fact that they only have adsb above 290 is a choice NAV CA made - don't infer that it is technically impracticable below that.
satellite services suffer from the same issues as microwaves in blizzards
You'd better tell the comms techs where I spend half the year.
The fact that they only have adsb above 290 is a choice NAV CA made - don't infer that it is technically impracticable below that.
Last edited by compressor stall; 16th Apr 2009 at 12:06.
That's true, but the satellite link was not mentioned as a problem in blizzards at a Nav Canada ADSB presentation I was at 2 weeks ago across the pond. They do not increase separation standards during blizzards.....
I only have pictures of the setup in hard copy. I am sure they are around on the net. There receivers forward the data via either fibre optic cable and satellite - depending on the remoteness of the location.
I only have pictures of the setup in hard copy. I am sure they are around on the net. There receivers forward the data via either fibre optic cable and satellite - depending on the remoteness of the location.
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Stallie true , but you are talking about high level ADSB, I was referring to low level < 5000 ft, then the game changes dramatically.
There are not enough ground VHF stations for low level.
There are not enough ground VHF stations for low level.
Joker10. Are you against transponders?
TSO ADS-B transponders are already available. Fitted next to a TSO146 GPS that transmits the correct data message, fill in the form, get checked out and you are ready to go. Air Services is still rolling out 1090ES receivers around the J-curve co-located with MSSR sites as well as a nest of them over in WA. The only difference to pre-JCP is there is currently no cross-industry funding arrangment and the radar continue to spin at enormous cost. AFAIK, the gear is still going in.
As the coverage around my part of the country gets greater then there will be more reason to upgrade. And once there is more reason to upgrade and more aircraft fitted then there will be more reason to buy that non-TSO "Toy" to go alongside my non-TSO GPS to depicted 1090ES/TIS-B....YES TIS-B!...for my personal information.....at no cost to the owner excepting fitment of a transponder.
Time will tell who is giving correct information on this subject.
TSO ADS-B transponders are already available. Fitted next to a TSO146 GPS that transmits the correct data message, fill in the form, get checked out and you are ready to go. Air Services is still rolling out 1090ES receivers around the J-curve co-located with MSSR sites as well as a nest of them over in WA. The only difference to pre-JCP is there is currently no cross-industry funding arrangment and the radar continue to spin at enormous cost. AFAIK, the gear is still going in.
As the coverage around my part of the country gets greater then there will be more reason to upgrade. And once there is more reason to upgrade and more aircraft fitted then there will be more reason to buy that non-TSO "Toy" to go alongside my non-TSO GPS to depicted 1090ES/TIS-B....YES TIS-B!...for my personal information.....at no cost to the owner excepting fitment of a transponder.
Time will tell who is giving correct information on this subject.
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Joker 10's must be taking his pseudonym too seriously. Trig TT31 Class 1 Mode S panel mount datalink transponder, with support for extended squitter. US $1945 last time I looked from a major avionics vendor in Melbourne Florida. OTD.
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What you said before was incorrect; TSO certified panel mount 1090ES ADS-B avionics are available at reasonable cost now. And your claim of "won't work in Australia below 5000" is not correct either. Light aircraft equipped with ADS-B operating near Alice Springs, Bourke, Broome, Bundaberg, Caiguna, Esperance, Karratha, Longreach as well as a number of other locations, can use ADS-B down to the ground today. I'll leave it to others to consider how well informed you are.
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there will be more reason to buy that non-TSO "Toy" to go alongside my non-TSO GPS to depicted 1090ES/TIS-B....YES TIS-B!...for my personal information
operational purposes (in any airspace at any altitude), it must be
approved equipment that makes specific flight identification
transmissions and it must be operated continuously (unless authorised
otherwise by air traffic control). Non-approved equipment must be
deactivated (except in VMC test flights below FL 290)”.
I believe this means that any equipment that has the potential to interface with ATC or the Airlines has to be approved or made unable to operate.
TSO certified panel mount 1090ES ADS-B avionics are available at reasonable cost now.
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Thanks Frank, yes the toy manufacturers have been hard at it, toy ADSB, Toy TCAS, Toy EFIS.
This is why only TSO Transponders can be fitted to ALL aircraft, anything that interfaces to the SSR system is required to operate to defined standards even day VFR or ultralights, to have it otherwise courts disaster for those we are trying to protect, the fare paying public.
I sense this thread will go into serious drift now with the ADSB chorus in full cry.
Personally I suspect we won't see mandated approved low level ADSB in my lifetime in Australia.
The SSR system in controlled airspace works very well and TCAS is now a proven technology out in the "boonies".
This is why only TSO Transponders can be fitted to ALL aircraft, anything that interfaces to the SSR system is required to operate to defined standards even day VFR or ultralights, to have it otherwise courts disaster for those we are trying to protect, the fare paying public.
I sense this thread will go into serious drift now with the ADSB chorus in full cry.
Personally I suspect we won't see mandated approved low level ADSB in my lifetime in Australia.
The SSR system in controlled airspace works very well and TCAS is now a proven technology out in the "boonies".