Casa Drug screening
Join Date: Dec 2002
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I'd go for the 48 hr option. The employer might be happy for you to fly but at the end of the day its a federal government body that isn't and in that case i wouldn't be taking any chances at all. Its like messing with a bigger version of the Tax department. No thanks.
I didnt say to keep flying... I said that if you tested positive and had to be removed from all SSAAs, that you wouldnt lose your job, or be stood down without pay.
Being stood down with pay, on the other hand, is fine, and has the same result for the employer as letting you take 48 hours CodralLeave with pay - except there is no actual guarantee that you WILL be tested and required to go home for a couple of days while they find out you were OK after all.
Being stood down with pay, on the other hand, is fine, and has the same result for the employer as letting you take 48 hours CodralLeave with pay - except there is no actual guarantee that you WILL be tested and required to go home for a couple of days while they find out you were OK after all.
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Yep understood. Currenlty in most companies there are too many pilots so its not a good idea to give anyone a reason against you.
My personal approach will be a total ban on all OTC medications within 48 hrs. Harsh yes but I'm comfortable with it.
My personal approach will be a total ban on all OTC medications within 48 hrs. Harsh yes but I'm comfortable with it.
I see your point, but what will you do if, on a day off, you have a splitting headache and runny nose, aches in your muscles, and you're pretty sure its the early stages of the flu?
Join Date: Jul 2008
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Yes CODEINE should be OFF the LIST, it's the usual idiots at casa 
flying up even more.For christ sake STOP trying to change things so you can justify your job casa.
flying up even more.For christ sake STOP trying to change things so you can justify your job casa.
Join Date: Jul 2008
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codeine, sickies etc
If drugs such as codeine are now on the hit list there is imho a good case for hitting companies up for more sick leave. Ailments that would could normally be treated with such drugs now cannot be treated so your recovery time maybe extended in the name of safety.
Maybe the industry can hit CASA with the bill?
If they are as concerned as they make out and drugs are a big problem they should take it up and compensate the industry for any such problems.
Maybe the industry can hit CASA with the bill?
If they are as concerned as they make out and drugs are a big problem they should take it up and compensate the industry for any such problems.
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Why?
Is it true that we are going through all of this crap now because of the Hamilton Island Cherokee 6 crash? Or do you think its industry 'worldwide'. Apparently Nurofen Plus tests positive for cocaine. I ain't giving that up, so jam it I say!
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Lasiorhinus, unfortunately I'm just going to have to go back to the old lemon and honey hot drink method. Its bloody painful i know but I'm not going to risk it unless there is a significant change in policy re OTC stuff. So basically I'll have to call in sick.
The thing is, it means not only panedeine but also other medications, the nurofens the codrals or even better the ones for allergy season. I can't imagine how some of the long haul guys will go with no sleeping tablets.
Along with high viz vests, asic cards, security sceening, no flight service, TIBA, all introduced in the last few years it goes along way to keep some people in jobs, others not and our lives harder without one inch of difference to safety.
Each and every minute that passes is another minute where soemone somewhere has the opportunity to make things harder and less practical. And its also another minute for a bea counter to work out how to decrease another condition and save a penny.
My way of dealing with it is to do what they want, nod and smile and know they work in a job they hate and i don't.
The thing is, it means not only panedeine but also other medications, the nurofens the codrals or even better the ones for allergy season. I can't imagine how some of the long haul guys will go with no sleeping tablets.
Along with high viz vests, asic cards, security sceening, no flight service, TIBA, all introduced in the last few years it goes along way to keep some people in jobs, others not and our lives harder without one inch of difference to safety.
Each and every minute that passes is another minute where soemone somewhere has the opportunity to make things harder and less practical. And its also another minute for a bea counter to work out how to decrease another condition and save a penny.
My way of dealing with it is to do what they want, nod and smile and know they work in a job they hate and i don't.
Join Date: Apr 2008
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False positives
A link to a story about the Victorian driver false positive:
John De Jong paid out for drug-drive fiasco | News.com.au Top stories | News.com.au
False positives are the real problem. Searches for information about drug test false positives suggest that they may be caused by many different things, most of which you would have no idea about beforehand. As far as actual over the counter drugs go, it seems like almost all nasal decongestants (including inhalers) might cause false positives for amphetamines. As people have noted, codeine and poppy seeds can cause false positives for opiates. It is also likely that false positives can occur without any obvious cause at all.
I would be very interested to see the actual false positive rates for the test - presumably the manufacturer documents it. From what I can find, 5% may be conservative - so if they are aiming to conduct 6000 tests, 300 pilots may be unnecessarily stood down. I would certainly expect the false positive count to be much higher then the true positive count.
John De Jong paid out for drug-drive fiasco | News.com.au Top stories | News.com.au
False positives are the real problem. Searches for information about drug test false positives suggest that they may be caused by many different things, most of which you would have no idea about beforehand. As far as actual over the counter drugs go, it seems like almost all nasal decongestants (including inhalers) might cause false positives for amphetamines. As people have noted, codeine and poppy seeds can cause false positives for opiates. It is also likely that false positives can occur without any obvious cause at all.
I would be very interested to see the actual false positive rates for the test - presumably the manufacturer documents it. From what I can find, 5% may be conservative - so if they are aiming to conduct 6000 tests, 300 pilots may be unnecessarily stood down. I would certainly expect the false positive count to be much higher then the true positive count.
False positives are one issue, and actual, correct positives for codeine is a seperate and equally dangerous problem.
If you take codeine, you will test positive to codeine, and this will eventually be confirmed as accurate. But why is codeine being tested?? Sure, test for dangerous drugs, mind-altering substances etc, but codeine??
If you take codeine, you will test positive to codeine, and this will eventually be confirmed as accurate. But why is codeine being tested?? Sure, test for dangerous drugs, mind-altering substances etc, but codeine??
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yep its b*llsh*t..
same as testing in any aviation area.. Im .03/.04 can still drive a car etc but after doing 12 hours duty so cant fly anyway.. and with no keys.. or after last light, I am still banned from checking the tie downs on my day VFR private aircraft .... WTF..!!!
I'm sitting at home having a beer and thinking about doing my jepp ammendments but the thought of CASA knocking on my door is too scary.. will have to secure myself in the local library tomorrow for such a safety sensitive activity...
on second thoughts.. ammendments might have to wait.. if I have a hangover on my day off and need a panadol.. cant risk it really...
same as testing in any aviation area.. Im .03/.04 can still drive a car etc but after doing 12 hours duty so cant fly anyway.. and with no keys.. or after last light, I am still banned from checking the tie downs on my day VFR private aircraft .... WTF..!!!
I'm sitting at home having a beer and thinking about doing my jepp ammendments but the thought of CASA knocking on my door is too scary.. will have to secure myself in the local library tomorrow for such a safety sensitive activity...
on second thoughts.. ammendments might have to wait.. if I have a hangover on my day off and need a panadol.. cant risk it really...
Last edited by xxgoldxx; 12th Apr 2009 at 14:17.
I doubt very much that these tests are testing for Codeine. They are simply not capable of distinguishing Codeine from other Opium derivatives. If they were capable of that, they would be capable of not returning false positives for any drug. Accurate test equipment is expensive and requires more knowledge and skill on the part of the tester. The more accurate the test, the higher the cost. It is far more desirable to ruin the life of a pilot or two than to provide accurate testing carried out by appropriately trained and qualified people. I don't expect to see an Australian professional pilot return a true positive test this year or the next. Perhaps when they water down CAO 48 enough, we will all need something to stay awake but until then we are what we say we are, professionals.
I doubt very much that these tests are testing for Codeine.
25 ng/mL is the permitted limit.
I stand corrected. However, if there is an allowable level of a substance, then the test must be able to determine that level to be a useful test and pilots must be given guidance as to what will lead to exceeding that level. Blood alcohol tests give a reading that can be translated into a reasonable assumption of impairment. We all know roughly how many drinks will put us at what level and how many hours are required for the alcohol to leave the system. If you tie one on, eight hours won't cover it so we don't get smashed the night before a flight. The screening allows for a BAC of 0.02. How many Panadene Forte can you take in a given time? If the answer can't be given then the answer is none and any over the counter medication becomes unusable because it might contain codeine, pseudo ephedrine or some other formally legal substance. We pilots obviously need unlimited sick leave as enjoyed by ATC. As a sample returning a positive is retested with more sophisticated equipment, the test should be made with the appropriate equipment in the first instance. Once you have tested positive, regardless of the fact that it was a false positive, you have a stigma that will follow you for the rest or your career. The appropriate equipment is available but not the money to use it so we are subject to second rate testing.
Man Bilong Balus long PNG
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A most interesting question CAR256. Somehow I think that it may be a good idea to have proper legal advice on these issues.
Any Lawyers on Pprune? And I don't mean of the Bush variety!
Any Lawyers on Pprune? And I don't mean of the Bush variety!
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We pilots obviously need unlimited sick leave as enjoyed by ATC
Its very simple, within 48 hours prior to sign on do not take any OTC medication. Approaching sign on (reasonable time of course) if you are still feeling unfit call it off.
This is not a matter to be trifled with. This is your licence and livelihood on the line. One may be seeking reassurances that its "all going to be fine" or that "bloggs got off". But given the right/wrong circumstances I think this has the potential to land people in the line at Centrelink.
Don't expect uniformity either. It'll be another screening point style outfit where in one place you have to get naked and the next you can walk thru with watch asic keys phone.
Could this question start appearing on jop applications???
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Targeting individuals?
For a loose example, lets say during a functional check, a flight control was damaged through circumstances beyond the contol of those involved. A member of management will make the call that may require you to undertake a drug & alcohol test. Strange. Because I can recall occasions where individuals were subjected to tests and occasions when other individuals were not for similar incidents. Targeting individuals now?
We asume that the person carrying out the test has been trained to use the equipment and that they understand how to inerpret the results? What if they make a mistake? Will they be tested?
Why do I ask this? Because it is highly likely that it will happen. In fact, it already has.
So what about if management make a mistake? Can we require them to take a drug and alcohol test? Who makes the call when they mess up?
We asume that the person carrying out the test has been trained to use the equipment and that they understand how to inerpret the results? What if they make a mistake? Will they be tested?
Why do I ask this? Because it is highly likely that it will happen. In fact, it already has.
So what about if management make a mistake? Can we require them to take a drug and alcohol test? Who makes the call when they mess up?
