Violation of Controlled Airspace
one of the young instructors in the shop showed me with pride the track from his last flight, bang on the Melbourne CTA boundary right around from north to south on the east side at 4500'.
Many don't know exactly what their GPS is telling them their distance is from
Is it
- from the DME
- from the VOR
- from the aerodrome reference point
- from the McDonalds joint in the terminal building
- or what?
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: At the minima
Posts: 31
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A little rhyme I was taught when starting out flying on X country navs out of Moorabbin:
"If you fly through pucka (punyal) you're a dead mutha f**k*r"
Yes I have had a VCA as a brand new PPL and owned up. Wasn't marked as a restricted area on the ERC but I didn't read the NOTAMs properly that day.
Filled out the paperwork.
Lesson learned.
"If you fly through pucka (punyal) you're a dead mutha f**k*r"
Yes I have had a VCA as a brand new PPL and owned up. Wasn't marked as a restricted area on the ERC but I didn't read the NOTAMs properly that day.
Filled out the paperwork.
Lesson learned.
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: in the classroom of life
Age: 55
Posts: 6,864
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
DBTW
A very good point, however the original post suggests an isolated and well known tower zone. Its not that hard!!!
Now if you were to talk about a Military zone further to the south and all its restricted areas, and the various bits that may or may not be active....... that is a recipe for VCA's in the super size serve! Again here talking to some widely experienced RAAF/RAF fighter pilots........they agree 100%, but we have had that thread a while back.
Captain Midnight
Exactly, and its not just the RAA folk, but the VH folk too who do not ensure they know how to fully operate their units! (See Bob, balance and fairness
)
J
A very good point, however the original post suggests an isolated and well known tower zone. Its not that hard!!!
Now if you were to talk about a Military zone further to the south and all its restricted areas, and the various bits that may or may not be active....... that is a recipe for VCA's in the super size serve! Again here talking to some widely experienced RAAF/RAF fighter pilots........they agree 100%, but we have had that thread a while back.
Captain Midnight
Exactly, and its not just the RAA folk, but the VH folk too who do not ensure they know how to fully operate their units! (See Bob, balance and fairness
)J
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Oz
Posts: 118
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As a Tower controller, yes we do submit an incident report if there is a VCA. As a proactive measure, if we can identify the aircraft in question, the PIC may receive a questionaire from our Safety Management group.
What we try to achieve is not to be over excited about what happened if all it was was a VCA with no other implications, but we really would like to know why it happened. In one case, the pilot misidentified a visual fix. Nothing we could do about it, but the pilot now is aware of what happened. In other cases it could be lack of maps, insufficient training, misunderstanding, etc. If we can identify the cause and steps can be implemented to reduce the risk of it happening again, then the safety system is working as it should.
Yes, the pilot might get a please explain from CASA, but that is not why we submit an incident report.
If you are going to fly near controlled airspace or a control zone and are unsure of what to do, call the centre / Tower and have a chat. We don't bite (usually
).
What we try to achieve is not to be over excited about what happened if all it was was a VCA with no other implications, but we really would like to know why it happened. In one case, the pilot misidentified a visual fix. Nothing we could do about it, but the pilot now is aware of what happened. In other cases it could be lack of maps, insufficient training, misunderstanding, etc. If we can identify the cause and steps can be implemented to reduce the risk of it happening again, then the safety system is working as it should.
Yes, the pilot might get a please explain from CASA, but that is not why we submit an incident report.
If you are going to fly near controlled airspace or a control zone and are unsure of what to do, call the centre / Tower and have a chat. We don't bite (usually
).
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Australia
Posts: 478
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Jabawocky;
I imagine RA-Aus aircraft who wish to operate in CTA would need a transponder and the pilot suitably qualified. Can't radar see them now?
Anecdotal stories about law breakers are the exception not the rule. If you feel badly about this sort of thing ring someone who can do something about it. Bleating here won't achieve anything and does nothing to help you and your lot have ADSB mandated. If that's what you wish. If you see someone robbing a bank you ring a policeman don't you?
My "snippet" that you exploited left out a bit.
If it never existed in the first place, who are those very guilty folk who helped stop it. If you are blaming me I must be more important than I thought. More so that the ABIT mob obviously.
I imagine RA-Aus aircraft who wish to operate in CTA would need a transponder and the pilot suitably qualified. Can't radar see them now?
Anecdotal stories about law breakers are the exception not the rule. If you feel badly about this sort of thing ring someone who can do something about it. Bleating here won't achieve anything and does nothing to help you and your lot have ADSB mandated. If that's what you wish. If you see someone robbing a bank you ring a policeman don't you?
My "snippet" that you exploited left out a bit.
Now of course I would be saying.........if only the low level ADSB mandate and subsidy got up........... but of course those very guilty folk who helped stop it would not see the benefit here.
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: in the classroom of life
Age: 55
Posts: 6,864
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Bob
Yes you are correct, they do operate quite happily with a transponder and appropriate licence etc...... You knew that already, its not a guess!
Anecdotal ......well you may say that, and in some cases yes, but believe me it happens, these guys do not make this **** up! As for ringing someone or emailing.... well on some far more dangerous issues I have and along with a CFI......... funny never even had a thank you or any follow up at all. No seeking clarification nothing. Almost like wasting ones time. Maybe you can correct this?
As for the last bit, I am not blaming you. The folk who bitterly opposed it are a far greater mass than you Bob, and we have discussed this before, it was a sloppy case from ABIT ASA and many others who let the opportunity slip. I think it was you who corrected me on this point once before!
Cheers!
Yes you are correct, they do operate quite happily with a transponder and appropriate licence etc...... You knew that already, its not a guess!
Anecdotal ......well you may say that, and in some cases yes, but believe me it happens, these guys do not make this **** up! As for ringing someone or emailing.... well on some far more dangerous issues I have and along with a CFI......... funny never even had a thank you or any follow up at all. No seeking clarification nothing. Almost like wasting ones time. Maybe you can correct this?
As for the last bit, I am not blaming you. The folk who bitterly opposed it are a far greater mass than you Bob, and we have discussed this before, it was a sloppy case from ABIT ASA and many others who let the opportunity slip. I think it was you who corrected me on this point once before!
Cheers!
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Mars
Posts: 373
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
C Change,
Absolutely not... but knowing if they do own up they will experience the CASA 'please explain' and a possiblity of prosecution is not going to encourage some to do the right thing.. More flys with honey than vinegar. Obviously report blatant stupidity but many of these 'VCA's' are for fairly minor tracking errors where a quick call to one of your guys to explain where they went wrong is really all that's needed.
PS We had an ATPL get the paperwork.. easy for anyone to make a minor mistake... It was very minor but and he did own up - Not sure he will if it happens again...
Or do you suggest it is better to continue with your journey, putting yourself and others in danger?
PS We had an ATPL get the paperwork.. easy for anyone to make a minor mistake... It was very minor but and he did own up - Not sure he will if it happens again...
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Australia
Posts: 344
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Support for C-Change
C-change I feeel for you because some people think that they are above the rules and that everyone else should bow down to them. Keep up the good work and please don't think that you are not appreciated because you definitely are.
My My My, The egos are at play again. Here are the simple facts. Ra or GA: You need a clearance to enter contolled airspace. Controlled airspace is clearly marked on the maps. You should know where you are all of the time even if you don't have a GPS. Ask for a clearance on the appropriate frequency at 10 miles prior to the boundry. Don't enter till you get it. How hard is that.
All it requires is a little discipline and if you don't apply that to all aspects of your flying then you should be walking. End of story.
Groggy.
My My My, The egos are at play again. Here are the simple facts. Ra or GA: You need a clearance to enter contolled airspace. Controlled airspace is clearly marked on the maps. You should know where you are all of the time even if you don't have a GPS. Ask for a clearance on the appropriate frequency at 10 miles prior to the boundry. Don't enter till you get it. How hard is that.
All it requires is a little discipline and if you don't apply that to all aspects of your flying then you should be walking. End of story.
Groggy.
Primary Radar will usually pick up unknown traffic.
I say usually, because it is subject to a lot of things - for example, the CG primary radar wasn't working for around 12 months recently, primary radar often picks up all kinds of things that aren't there, and some aircraft have too small a profile or reflective surface to be detected (esp fibreglass / composite).
Also, primary radar only exists around Capital City Primary CTR's.
But it does save a lot of VCA's becoming a whole lot worse.
From my observations around 40% of traffic operating OCTA around the BN area does not use a transponder (whether not fitted or just not switched on). (Having it on even when OCTA has saved a lot of close calls with other aircraft awaiting clearance or leaving CTA on descent over the years)
I say usually, because it is subject to a lot of things - for example, the CG primary radar wasn't working for around 12 months recently, primary radar often picks up all kinds of things that aren't there, and some aircraft have too small a profile or reflective surface to be detected (esp fibreglass / composite).
Also, primary radar only exists around Capital City Primary CTR's.
But it does save a lot of VCA's becoming a whole lot worse.
From my observations around 40% of traffic operating OCTA around the BN area does not use a transponder (whether not fitted or just not switched on). (Having it on even when OCTA has saved a lot of close calls with other aircraft awaiting clearance or leaving CTA on descent over the years)
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: in the classroom of life
Age: 55
Posts: 6,864
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
From my observations around 40% of traffic operating OCTA around the BN area does not use a transponder (whether not fitted or just not switched on).
Nothing more to say on that.....for now! J
And I bet it is not very long before ATSB or CASA start publically raising concerns about the increase in mid airs and the almost mid air prangs
Last edited by Jabawocky; 20th Mar 2009 at 04:26.
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Think of a happy place. Think of a happy place. Think of a happy place
Posts: 279
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Can anyone tell me the last time someone was prosecuted for a VCA that happened accidentally? Or even deliberately for that matter?
Cheers
TBT
Cheers
TBT
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Australia
Posts: 478
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Before ATSB or CASA start making public statements about mid air's they need to update their data so a cost benefit analysis can be sensibly made about electronic collission avoidance devices. Especially listening to the rantings of those who would have it mandated so the few can feel warm and cuddly without having to look out the window.
The last stat's are current to 2003. http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/...midair_col.pdf
They show 37 collisions over a 42 year period.(1.135 per year). 41% in controlled airspace. (were all these VCA's?)
There were 37 midair collisions involving general aviation aircraft in Australia
during the period 1961 to 2003. Since 1968, there was approximately one
midair collision per year in Australia. Most (34) of the midair collisions were
accidents, and a majority (19) of these accidents resulted in fatalities.
• There were no midair collisions involving regular public transport (RPT)
operations in Australia from 1961 to 2003.
• Midair collisions account for about 3 per cent of fatal accidents involving
general aviation aircraft, and 0.4 of a percentage point of all accidents involving general aviation aircraft.
• Most (78 per cent) of the midair collisions that have occurred in Australia since 1961 have occurred in or near the circuit area. This reflects the higher traffic density in this area. A high proportion of the collisions (35 per cent) occurred on final approach or the base-to-final turn.
• A high proportion of the midair collisions (41 per cent) have occurred at the five major general aviation airports (Archerfield, Bankstown, Jandakot, Moorabbin, Parafield). However, the rate of collisions at these airports has decreased since the introduction of General Aviation Aerodrome Procedures in 1980.
• A range of contributing factors were involved in the midair collisions, but there were no dominant factors. Most of the collisions involved one aircraft colliding with another from behind, or both aircraft converging from a similar direction.
• In general, the characteristics and contributing factors of midair collisions in
Australia appear to be similar to those observed in other countries such as the US, France and Canada.
• Australia and the US had a similar rate of midair collisions involving general
aviation aircraft during the period 1981-2003. The US had a higher rate of
general aviation aircraft involved in collisions per flight hour away from the
circuit area, which is consistent with the US having more general aviation flying activity and a higher traffic density.
Table 1: Number of midair collisions in Australia between different types of aircraft between 1961 and 2003 (fatal accidents, non-fatal accidents, and incidents in brackets)
Aircraft types 1961-70 1971-80 1981-90 1991-03 Total
General aviation
Aeroplane-aeroplane 3 (0,3,0) 11 (3,7,1) 7 (4,2,1) 7 (4,2,1) 28 (11,14,3)
Aeroplane-helicopter 1 (1,0,0) 0 0 0 1 (1,0,0)
Aeroplane-ultralight 0 0 0 1 (0,1,0) 1 (0,1,0)
Aeroplane-glider 0 1 (1,0,0) 2 (2,0,0) 4 (4,0,0) 7 (7,0,0)
Total 4 (1,3,0) 12 (4,7,1) 9 (6,2,1) 12 (8,3,1) 37 (19,15,3)
Sports aviation
Glider – glider 1 (1,0,0) 4 (1,2,1) 12 (2,7,3) 5 (3,1,1) 22 (7,10,5)
Balloon – balloon 0 0 2 (1,0,1) 2 (0,0,2) 4 (1,0,3)
3.2
3
The last stat's are current to 2003. http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/...midair_col.pdf
They show 37 collisions over a 42 year period.(1.135 per year). 41% in controlled airspace. (were all these VCA's?)
There were 37 midair collisions involving general aviation aircraft in Australia
during the period 1961 to 2003. Since 1968, there was approximately one
midair collision per year in Australia. Most (34) of the midair collisions were
accidents, and a majority (19) of these accidents resulted in fatalities.
• There were no midair collisions involving regular public transport (RPT)
operations in Australia from 1961 to 2003.
• Midair collisions account for about 3 per cent of fatal accidents involving
general aviation aircraft, and 0.4 of a percentage point of all accidents involving general aviation aircraft.
• Most (78 per cent) of the midair collisions that have occurred in Australia since 1961 have occurred in or near the circuit area. This reflects the higher traffic density in this area. A high proportion of the collisions (35 per cent) occurred on final approach or the base-to-final turn.
• A high proportion of the midair collisions (41 per cent) have occurred at the five major general aviation airports (Archerfield, Bankstown, Jandakot, Moorabbin, Parafield). However, the rate of collisions at these airports has decreased since the introduction of General Aviation Aerodrome Procedures in 1980.
• A range of contributing factors were involved in the midair collisions, but there were no dominant factors. Most of the collisions involved one aircraft colliding with another from behind, or both aircraft converging from a similar direction.
• In general, the characteristics and contributing factors of midair collisions in
Australia appear to be similar to those observed in other countries such as the US, France and Canada.
• Australia and the US had a similar rate of midair collisions involving general
aviation aircraft during the period 1981-2003. The US had a higher rate of
general aviation aircraft involved in collisions per flight hour away from the
circuit area, which is consistent with the US having more general aviation flying activity and a higher traffic density.
Table 1: Number of midair collisions in Australia between different types of aircraft between 1961 and 2003 (fatal accidents, non-fatal accidents, and incidents in brackets)
Aircraft types 1961-70 1971-80 1981-90 1991-03 Total
General aviation
Aeroplane-aeroplane 3 (0,3,0) 11 (3,7,1) 7 (4,2,1) 7 (4,2,1) 28 (11,14,3)
Aeroplane-helicopter 1 (1,0,0) 0 0 0 1 (1,0,0)
Aeroplane-ultralight 0 0 0 1 (0,1,0) 1 (0,1,0)
Aeroplane-glider 0 1 (1,0,0) 2 (2,0,0) 4 (4,0,0) 7 (7,0,0)
Total 4 (1,3,0) 12 (4,7,1) 9 (6,2,1) 12 (8,3,1) 37 (19,15,3)
Sports aviation
Glider – glider 1 (1,0,0) 4 (1,2,1) 12 (2,7,3) 5 (3,1,1) 22 (7,10,5)
Balloon – balloon 0 0 2 (1,0,1) 2 (0,0,2) 4 (1,0,3)
3.2
3
Last edited by Bob Murphie; 20th Mar 2009 at 06:42.
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: brisbane australia
Posts: 88
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Todays students are not made fly in and out of a GAAP ie., archerfield,bankstown,morabin etc. just to look at key vfr points and I dont mean the ones on the VTC map.
By that I mean as an extra sortie taking up an hour or so. Maybe some schools do but I can tell you most dont. It used to be done once upon a time but not now.
You might argue that going to the training area and departing and entering from the x country navs in and out is enough but its not.
Try as an instructor to say this is what your gonna do today Blogs ie., in and ot of the circut area and the higher archy will jump on you telling you its not necessary.
Every time I check on who has had a VCA today its always the same, oh I lost track of where I was or forgot my VTC.
CASA dont care now they have other things to look at. When you learnt to fly in the seventies or eighties you feared the bloke from CASA but not now as you never see him and if you did he is probably ramping some poor charter pilot at a country AD.
By that I mean as an extra sortie taking up an hour or so. Maybe some schools do but I can tell you most dont. It used to be done once upon a time but not now.
You might argue that going to the training area and departing and entering from the x country navs in and out is enough but its not.
Try as an instructor to say this is what your gonna do today Blogs ie., in and ot of the circut area and the higher archy will jump on you telling you its not necessary.
Every time I check on who has had a VCA today its always the same, oh I lost track of where I was or forgot my VTC.
CASA dont care now they have other things to look at. When you learnt to fly in the seventies or eighties you feared the bloke from CASA but not now as you never see him and if you did he is probably ramping some poor charter pilot at a country AD.
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Mars
Posts: 373
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Does anyone even know of a case that has led to prosecution or a fine for a VCA?
(Hopefully a more worthy dunnundra response now!)
Hey Ratso, if a student goes out without a VTC and then does a VCA, no way should (s)he be prosecuted ... but the instructor and the school should!
Makes me wonder what CASA actually get to read when they get those forms back from some schools... Must cause endless amusement.
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Back again.
Posts: 1,140
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
We've always had VCA's and we always will. I got "lost" going VFR into Tullamarine many, many years ago. It was only 5 or 6 miles away, but I couldn't see it no matter how hard I looked and ATC eventually had to tell me to make a left 90. When the CTR's were reduced in size some years ago, VCA's became more critical as there is less time for controllers to pick up problems/hazards and make alterations accordingly. I don't agree with the CASA prosecuting VCA offenses per se, but I would like to see them organize a ramp check of the offending pilot and his/her aircraft to check on current documents and qualifications. At present, the CASA doesn't have the resources for anything more than navel gazing.
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Australia
Posts: 157
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Also, primary radar only exists around Capital City Primary CTR's.
Ask for a clearance on the appropriate frequency at 10 miles prior to the boundry.
If you call 10nm prior to the CTZ, and we have a solid sequence for the next X minutes, then expect a delay.
It always felt like it to me 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: my happy place....
Posts: 52
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Integrity anyone?
Two words spring to mind here, integrity and airmanship. 
Regardless of the big stick the authority may wield, how can any aircrew justify NOT owning up to an error (as oppossed to a violation) when they know the possible outcome of a VCA? The immediate threat far outwieghs any possible threat from a nastygram from ASA or CASA. There seems to be a lack of both airmanship and integrity. Who gives a sh*t about the paperwork to follow, care enough about your fellow aviators in the short term please.
And if you do get a slap on the wrist and god forbid can not fly for a few weeks while its sorted, then so be it. Learn from it and move on.
Yep I have made errors here and there, but I owned up and guess what? I am still flying. Its sad when we have to brief to the crew to expect random GA aircraft to have NFI when we get where we are going.
ATC, keep up the good work
Regardless of the big stick the authority may wield, how can any aircrew justify NOT owning up to an error (as oppossed to a violation) when they know the possible outcome of a VCA? The immediate threat far outwieghs any possible threat from a nastygram from ASA or CASA. There seems to be a lack of both airmanship and integrity. Who gives a sh*t about the paperwork to follow, care enough about your fellow aviators in the short term please.
And if you do get a slap on the wrist and god forbid can not fly for a few weeks while its sorted, then so be it. Learn from it and move on.
Yep I have made errors here and there, but I owned up and guess what? I am still flying. Its sad when we have to brief to the crew to expect random GA aircraft to have NFI when we get where we are going.
ATC, keep up the good work