Massey University Flying School
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Nothing personal here 27, merely trying to clarify what I was alluding to with real world examples.
My relationship to CTC is through as I said, experience of the end product as well as being involved in the Type-rating process of these people onto the 757.
As far as Massey is concerned, I am convinced that the qualifications offered have more to do with lining the Campus coffers than it does providing the students with a viable and well recognised qualification. Certainly a university degree is a valuable measure of someones ability to disseminate and complete work, on the other hand it is utterly useless unless it is relevant.
IMHO, the Massey sylabus falls down under scrutiny with respect to relevance.
The other weakness that has been thoroughly covered on PPrune is the lack of any continuity of training, and sadly, that problem goes back a long way indeed.
I'm all for people bettering themselves, upskilling, and generally being educated, but I dont see how the Massey programme improves a young aviators chances of gaining worthwhile employment (over the likes of CTC), in point of fact I believe it creates institutional and academic barriers.
Far better IMHO to go to a good school with a solid pedegree and contacts..than to chase a qualification that will do very little to help you as you sit down to that sim assessment
My relationship to CTC is through as I said, experience of the end product as well as being involved in the Type-rating process of these people onto the 757.
As far as Massey is concerned, I am convinced that the qualifications offered have more to do with lining the Campus coffers than it does providing the students with a viable and well recognised qualification. Certainly a university degree is a valuable measure of someones ability to disseminate and complete work, on the other hand it is utterly useless unless it is relevant.
IMHO, the Massey sylabus falls down under scrutiny with respect to relevance.
The other weakness that has been thoroughly covered on PPrune is the lack of any continuity of training, and sadly, that problem goes back a long way indeed.
I'm all for people bettering themselves, upskilling, and generally being educated, but I dont see how the Massey programme improves a young aviators chances of gaining worthwhile employment (over the likes of CTC), in point of fact I believe it creates institutional and academic barriers.
Far better IMHO to go to a good school with a solid pedegree and contacts..than to chase a qualification that will do very little to help you as you sit down to that sim assessment
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???
As a new member to pprune, Ive just spent the last half hour reading the debate on whether or not to go to Massey. The arguement sways from pros to cons but to be frank, the only people who should be commenting are ex students of these establishments. Its very easy to bag massey since its such a recognisable flying school around NZ but what needs to be said is that they too are just typical kiwis trying to further their education in the field of aviation. Who says that spending a couple of extra years to get a degree isnt worth it? and on the other hand who says it is? It really does come down to the individual and their needs. Most training organisations have their pros and cons, if they didnt what would make them unique? Each tailors to different needs of pilots around the whole of NZ.
I believe the aviation community in NZ is great for one thing but is it really necessary to bag on others whom are probably in the same boat as you are?
I believe the aviation community in NZ is great for one thing but is it really necessary to bag on others whom are probably in the same boat as you are?
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When you have only done your training there, you dont really know what a high level of training is.
A small flying school generally will give you more personal and better one on one training as your not a walking $ sign to most of them.
On the other hand, you dont have the same reputation in training in the charter/small airlines after you finish flight school.
A small flying school generally will give you more personal and better one on one training as your not a walking $ sign to most of them.
On the other hand, you dont have the same reputation in training in the charter/small airlines after you finish flight school.
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Lilflyboy, You obviusly don't fly for an airline.
Massey doesn't have a high reputation with some check and training staff in my airline. Some people I have flown with from there seem to think they are a cut above the rest because they came from Massey, and are far from it I assure you.
However that is not the case for all students of Massey.
On the subject fo CTC v Massey. My two cents worth...
I would have to support haughtney1's general view on all this, (though I am far less experienced in my career). But have had exposure to NZ and UK industries.
It seems to me all training providers that put through large numbers of students are going to be labelled sausage factories to some extent. It is then the quality of sausage that matters.
CTC focuses their training from day one for multi crew ops with the goal of putting guys into the RHS of a jet for their UK clients (some NZ guys I know but same training), whereas Massey offers a degree (that has no advantage in getting an airline job) with the purpose of training someone to a CPL standard to send them out there to instruct or to GA with the goal of getting an airline job.
CTC have been very successful in achieving this and I have friends who have been through the course and are with UK locos that have had no problems whatsoever.
I also have friends that have been through Massey that hold Captain/First Officer postions across the Air NZ group and are no less skilled for their early training history, possibly due to their longer route to an airline.
There will always be the debate you can't teach the experience instructing/GA will offer. End of the day it's supply vs demand and things are (or at least have been) different in NZ to the UK.
Personally I believe initially with lower hours the added experience can be advantageous, but when you have been around a while and have absorbed knowledge from experienced skippers and seen many things, there is no difference. Alternatively with GA/instructing you will need to unlearn some bad habits for multi crew operations.
Massey doesn't have a high reputation with some check and training staff in my airline. Some people I have flown with from there seem to think they are a cut above the rest because they came from Massey, and are far from it I assure you.
However that is not the case for all students of Massey.
On the subject fo CTC v Massey. My two cents worth...
I would have to support haughtney1's general view on all this, (though I am far less experienced in my career). But have had exposure to NZ and UK industries.
It seems to me all training providers that put through large numbers of students are going to be labelled sausage factories to some extent. It is then the quality of sausage that matters.
CTC focuses their training from day one for multi crew ops with the goal of putting guys into the RHS of a jet for their UK clients (some NZ guys I know but same training), whereas Massey offers a degree (that has no advantage in getting an airline job) with the purpose of training someone to a CPL standard to send them out there to instruct or to GA with the goal of getting an airline job.
CTC have been very successful in achieving this and I have friends who have been through the course and are with UK locos that have had no problems whatsoever.
I also have friends that have been through Massey that hold Captain/First Officer postions across the Air NZ group and are no less skilled for their early training history, possibly due to their longer route to an airline.
There will always be the debate you can't teach the experience instructing/GA will offer. End of the day it's supply vs demand and things are (or at least have been) different in NZ to the UK.
Personally I believe initially with lower hours the added experience can be advantageous, but when you have been around a while and have absorbed knowledge from experienced skippers and seen many things, there is no difference. Alternatively with GA/instructing you will need to unlearn some bad habits for multi crew operations.
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It would be interesting to find out the average student loan debt Massey students rack up after 3 or 4 years. I know a couple of people with well over $100k. To me it seems an expensive and time consuming way to get a commercial licence.
If you are intent on getting a degree, I'd rather do a B.Com or something more practical. Better yet, do a trade. Earn while you learn, and you'll always have something to fall back on should your aviation career turn to sh#t.
If you are intent on getting a degree, I'd rather do a B.Com or something more practical. Better yet, do a trade. Earn while you learn, and you'll always have something to fall back on should your aviation career turn to sh#t.
One thing to ask arround about is that they as far as I'm aware, don't do the ASL exams. You do a massey equivilent exam, so that if you do decide to leave massey before gaining your CPL you will have to resit all your CPL exams again.
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Massey and hidden agenda in their fee
If some one has to re enrol into paper because they fail the flying or theory component. They will make you enrol into another semester and make you do the paper from next semester while you pass the failed subject. At that time they will make you pay fee for theory as well as practicum even though you are not doing flying from that semester.
lets say you failed one sem one paper. They will make you do that failed sem one paper and at the same time will enrol you into sem two papers and make you pay whole fee for that second semester( i.e flying and theory). The BIGGEST trap here is. If you can not somehow pass that paper from sem one your all the money that you paid for flying for second semster will be gone.
One of student passsed everything apart from one flight test. At the mean time he has to do one theory paper again as he failed the flight test and that flight test was part of the paper. At the mean time he was allowed to enrol into second semester. i.e he do other papers for second semester and and paid his 4 thousand for theory and about 15 to 20 thousand for flying. He passed all the second semster paper but he failed his test again and he lost his 15- 20 thousand.
The TRAP was he lost all that 20 thousand dollar even though he did not use any of them. why? because he was still doing semester one flying.
It is known that there are so many who have fallen under this trap. I know many students who has spend 50 - 60k just to get ppl at Massey. Although its training are professional there is a great trap set up and you will not know it until you fall into one. so before you go make sure you know what you are enrolling in.
lets say you failed one sem one paper. They will make you do that failed sem one paper and at the same time will enrol you into sem two papers and make you pay whole fee for that second semester( i.e flying and theory). The BIGGEST trap here is. If you can not somehow pass that paper from sem one your all the money that you paid for flying for second semster will be gone.
One of student passsed everything apart from one flight test. At the mean time he has to do one theory paper again as he failed the flight test and that flight test was part of the paper. At the mean time he was allowed to enrol into second semester. i.e he do other papers for second semester and and paid his 4 thousand for theory and about 15 to 20 thousand for flying. He passed all the second semster paper but he failed his test again and he lost his 15- 20 thousand.
The TRAP was he lost all that 20 thousand dollar even though he did not use any of them. why? because he was still doing semester one flying.
It is known that there are so many who have fallen under this trap. I know many students who has spend 50 - 60k just to get ppl at Massey. Although its training are professional there is a great trap set up and you will not know it until you fall into one. so before you go make sure you know what you are enrolling in.
Last edited by pprun; 21st Aug 2011 at 03:51.
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True that you do not do ASL exams. ASL exams are harder than Massey. Why? because for many Massey exam you get hints and on revesion day at times you will pretty much get the whole exam question ( they wont make it 100% obvious but you will know it. or else how will most class get 85 to 90%? Ask this to any one who has been through Massey system and they will be able to tell you. compared to ASL exam you have to go through each and everything in the syallabus. As exams are made by Massey they will ensure whatever is taught in the class will be in the exam. For some paper Massey will even give you sample of question and funny enough many of it it will be in the exam. compare to ASL you will not even have a clue of even one question.
Last edited by pprun; 20th Aug 2011 at 12:05.
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ASL exams are much harder... and an english exam to boot!
@Minimum wage, I wasn't implying that the people from Massey were held in high regard by the airlines, in fact far from it.
Pretty the only people in NZ that believe that Massey pilots are great, are the massey pilots...
@Minimum wage, I wasn't implying that the people from Massey were held in high regard by the airlines, in fact far from it.
Pretty the only people in NZ that believe that Massey pilots are great, are the massey pilots...
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yes it is true ASL papers are much more harder. Sooner or later CAA will find out about the Masseys system and they will be busted. when CAA comes for audit at school, every one( CFI and other related staffs) looks so professional and they pretend that some inspectors are coming to check them up. If you get 10 random students who have got CPL from Massey and 10 random students from other flying school who has CPL from flying club. I will be surprised if all 10 Massey can pass ASL exam . May be they don't know that ASL candidates do not get any hints for their test. They( Massey students) believe that their exam papers are harder than ASL, Why? Because they have to write short answer instead of multi choice.
In some exams they get 10 short answers and you can even ask those 10 questions to your ex friends and the question will be 100% same. Is Massey exam still harder when you know what will be in exams?
Masseys exam are truly flawed and designed for student to pass it giving hints and even giving students to see exam papers after exam. They will say it is safety issue and they have to notify student's mistakes . What is the point of kdr then? I wonder when ASL will let you go through your exam paper after you finish your exam. NEVER.
Don't think Massey's exams are any harder than the ASL exam. They might have printed out AC 61-5. They dont even teach all of it and what they teach will be in the exam. lucky you guys. lol
I wonder when ASL is going to give hints to it's candidate .
There are great expereinced teachers though. You got to admire their knowledge and skills.
In some exams they get 10 short answers and you can even ask those 10 questions to your ex friends and the question will be 100% same. Is Massey exam still harder when you know what will be in exams?
Masseys exam are truly flawed and designed for student to pass it giving hints and even giving students to see exam papers after exam. They will say it is safety issue and they have to notify student's mistakes . What is the point of kdr then? I wonder when ASL will let you go through your exam paper after you finish your exam. NEVER.
Don't think Massey's exams are any harder than the ASL exam. They might have printed out AC 61-5. They dont even teach all of it and what they teach will be in the exam. lucky you guys. lol
I wonder when ASL is going to give hints to it's candidate .
There are great expereinced teachers though. You got to admire their knowledge and skills.
Last edited by pprun; 20th Aug 2011 at 11:49.
Wow..that's a searing indictment ..is that true
Massey have what is known as "equivalence" in other words they have their own in house exams and flight testing which is in their eyes the same as or better than what is required in part 61. I think most in the industry, Massey excluded, don't believe this at all. It was a very hot topic within the aviation training community when this was granted to them.
Equivalence should never have been granted, I don't know what CAA were smoking at the time, they certainly got sold a con job by Massey. I'm not sure it would be granted today but once the approval has been granted it's very hard to withdraw it. I'll bet Massey's QA system and paper work is very smick, no matter the standard of the exams or flight tests there'll never be anything wrong with the paper work, therefore never a reason to revoke the approval.
Motley
As an ex Massey student I can say at least my English is better than the last few posts. Retards.......
By the way level 4 English is all that's needed to to be able to operate internationally. While pprun's English isn't perfect I was able to understand his or her point very well.
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Motley. You are one fine example of how arrogant are some student pilot at Massey. I am well aware of few friends who went to Massey and they are fine representitive of their school. I am referring to people like you who are the liability to school not an asset. Truth hurts to you, doesn't it? I hope you are not flying an airines with this attitude of yours. Even if you are, belive me you won't be there for long. I thought when you went to flying school they teaught you basics of respecting people and and what airmanship is all about. Or was good airmanship to you is picking some one and criticize their english over the radio?????????
I did not realise Pprune is english exam centre. 27/09 who was able to understand the message well and 27/09 is right, you just need to get level 4 to fly. Stop being arrogant and pick up people on their english.
so true what 27/09 said. It is hard for CAA to find mistakes as they look so perfect in the books. Offcourse CAA would go by books and they will not even know any thing like this.
I did not realise Pprune is english exam centre. 27/09 who was able to understand the message well and 27/09 is right, you just need to get level 4 to fly. Stop being arrogant and pick up people on their english.
so true what 27/09 said. It is hard for CAA to find mistakes as they look so perfect in the books. Offcourse CAA would go by books and they will not even know any thing like this.
Last edited by pprun; 20th Aug 2011 at 11:33.
I was in Massey more than 15 years ago. Once you leave Massey we're on our own like all of you. If we were as crap and dumb as you say, we wouldn't make it in the real world of aviation, would we. I need to achieve no more in my career really. If sitting around winging about ASL exams makes you happy, go for it. What I will say is my knowledge is better than most from all the other "stuff" I learn't in the degree. Regret going to NZ and Massey, no way, overseas companies like degrees. I have mine, do you guys? No. You do the bare minimum required. I like my CV with a BAv on it.
My point guys is do the exams, pass them then go out in GA and network, don't worry about who did what and where........
My point guys is do the exams, pass them then go out in GA and network, don't worry about who did what and where........
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You were the first one commenting/ criticising about english. you might have made it to real world aviation. It doesnt mean a thing. There was a time Southwest did not accept Ace air force pilot with all A + grade. Why ? because Herbz Keller( CEO of Southwest) replied him he was being arrogant and mean to receptionist. See there is difference between getting respect from people and making it to real world being arrogant like that airforce pilot.
We were not winging about ASL exams. we were just telling the truth and every people in this forum has right to know the truth.
We were not discussin whether exams are relevent to indutry or not. offourse what you will study is relevant in industry.
Oh you have bachelor degree, lol . I am sorry look around and find out what does BAV with Hons means or postgraduate diploma means?
If you did not knew then I will be getting one and hold most of the licence you might hold already .Bachelor with Hons or postgrad diploma looks much nicer in CV. I am surprised how come people with attitude problem and being arrogant at other's english get hired in aviation industry.
Pilot are like the god just works in that part of the world not in European countries.
We were not winging about ASL exams. we were just telling the truth and every people in this forum has right to know the truth.
We were not discussin whether exams are relevent to indutry or not. offourse what you will study is relevant in industry.
Oh you have bachelor degree, lol . I am sorry look around and find out what does BAV with Hons means or postgraduate diploma means?
If you did not knew then I will be getting one and hold most of the licence you might hold already .Bachelor with Hons or postgrad diploma looks much nicer in CV. I am surprised how come people with attitude problem and being arrogant at other's english get hired in aviation industry.
Pilot are like the god just works in that part of the world not in European countries.
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Motley "My point guys is do the exams, pass them then go out in GA and network, don't worry about who did what and where........ "
You are right Motley but every people has got rights to know the truth about exams. We are not comparing which is bettter or harder. We ar discussin just for the sake of knowing how things works at different place. You get tired of how some Massey student pilot think of others around the country.
You are right Motley but every people has got rights to know the truth about exams. We are not comparing which is bettter or harder. We ar discussin just for the sake of knowing how things works at different place. You get tired of how some Massey student pilot think of others around the country.