Air Nelson
Haughtney and remoak are right in a way, it is certainly not fair to simply write people off because they have moved overseas. But, many in the company say that either that rule is long gone, or exemptions are frequently made.
At the same time, yes, NZ is a small place. If the airlines were to hire purely on CV and flight hours then no-one would ever move from NZ GA to the NZ airlines, because there will always be an applicant overseas with turboprop or jet experience wanting in. Always!
When they hire from the NZ GA pool, every person in NZ GA benefits in terms of progression. Is that not good for the industry as a whole?
So, perhaps its more about helping General Aviation in general, as opposed to 'punishing' those individuals that move overseas!?
At the same time, yes, NZ is a small place. If the airlines were to hire purely on CV and flight hours then no-one would ever move from NZ GA to the NZ airlines, because there will always be an applicant overseas with turboprop or jet experience wanting in. Always!
When they hire from the NZ GA pool, every person in NZ GA benefits in terms of progression. Is that not good for the industry as a whole?
So, perhaps its more about helping General Aviation in general, as opposed to 'punishing' those individuals that move overseas!?
The primary reason why people go overseas is there is simply not enough entry level jobs nor progression. Supply of pilots exceeds demand and those leaving NZ are headed where there is grater demand. The shiny jets, money and rapid progression come with the territory that isn't offered in NZ.
In days gone by 2000-3000 hours to get a job in the right hand seat of an EMB110 you have got to be forkin kiddin me.
In days gone by 2000-3000 hours to get a job in the right hand seat of an EMB110 you have got to be forkin kiddin me.
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: USA
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I would agree with that...I did my training in NZ and at the end, due to the fuel crisis of the 80's and the then economic climate found my self driving trucks in NZ and Australia because there were no jobs in aviation at all at that time for low time guys.
I eventually ended up in the USA where I started Flight Instructing then on to the commuters, Navajo Chieftain's, Metroliner's, Brasilia's and then on to the big iron, L1011, B727 and B737-300....however none of these were considered new and shiney when I got my hands on them and as for the money...it has been OK for a while, but when you start in the F/E seat and then just about get enough seniority to make right seat and the company shuts down....well its start at the bottom again...and then when you make the right seat the economy flattens and you just sit with no movement towards the left seat...needless to say it not as rosey as one might think!!
And now with the cargo carrier I had been with for 10 years shutting down early in 2008 , I find myself seriously looking to return to NZ now to fly out my remaining years, and to be closer to family...(.and I will admit the lifestyle seems more appealing now than when I left ) and I hope that my experience will count for something and that I will get a fair shot at a job I apply for...I am after all still a New Zealander and it was only due to timing and the situation in NZ avaition at that time that made me look elsewhere to seek the job I had trained to do!
At the time when I left NZ, both NZ and Australia were very regulated with regard to the airlines...ie there were no new start/entrant carriers and there was no indication that there would be any significant change in the scene at that time..especially to a young guy with a fresh ticket in his pocket eager to persue a career in aviation as a pilot.
I eventually ended up in the USA where I started Flight Instructing then on to the commuters, Navajo Chieftain's, Metroliner's, Brasilia's and then on to the big iron, L1011, B727 and B737-300....however none of these were considered new and shiney when I got my hands on them and as for the money...it has been OK for a while, but when you start in the F/E seat and then just about get enough seniority to make right seat and the company shuts down....well its start at the bottom again...and then when you make the right seat the economy flattens and you just sit with no movement towards the left seat...needless to say it not as rosey as one might think!!
And now with the cargo carrier I had been with for 10 years shutting down early in 2008 , I find myself seriously looking to return to NZ now to fly out my remaining years, and to be closer to family...(.and I will admit the lifestyle seems more appealing now than when I left ) and I hope that my experience will count for something and that I will get a fair shot at a job I apply for...I am after all still a New Zealander and it was only due to timing and the situation in NZ avaition at that time that made me look elsewhere to seek the job I had trained to do!
At the time when I left NZ, both NZ and Australia were very regulated with regard to the airlines...ie there were no new start/entrant carriers and there was no indication that there would be any significant change in the scene at that time..especially to a young guy with a fresh ticket in his pocket eager to persue a career in aviation as a pilot.
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: back of the crew bus
Posts: 1,312
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
On the subject of perspective...
When I was a young instructor, it was virtually impossible to get anything approaching an airline job unless you had already been instructing for several years. When I left, my flying buddy and I were instructing on Tomahawks.
So I decided to go to the UK, where there was a massive pilot shortage at the time.
Looking back, it would have been a lot easier to have stayed here. First, I had to travel to the UK, and then survive there while not earning any money while getting a UK licence. it cost about NZ$20,000 just for that.
Then I had to get a UK licence, which basically took a year even with first time passes in everything. The Brits wouldn't give me any credit for my NZ CPL, so I had to sit all the ATPL exams and 4 flight tests to get a UK CPL. That cost me well over NZ$100,000.
A week after I passed my General Flying Tests, I had a job flying a turboprop. But it had cost me over NZ$120,000, taken a year, and been a pretty hard time in a new country where I knew nobody.
Two years later, I had 1500 hours turbine and my mate back home was still instructing in the Tomahawk.
Now the idea that any of this was "taking the easy route" is, quite frankly, offensive. it would have been a lot easier to have just stayed in NZ, enjoy the lifestyle and hope there was a Metro in my future somewhere.
A few years later I tried to go back to NZ, to find that I wasn't welcome because I had dared to go overseas. So I traded what I wanted - right seat of a Saab - for a jet command in Europe.
So my point is this. A Kiwi going overseas, pays a very high price in doing so. He or she gets some valuable experience flying in a far more demanding environment, but finds that good old parochial NZ doesn't recognise or value that experience - probably the only profession in the country that takes such a view. Every other profession richly rewards overseas experience, but not aviation.
Sure, Air Nelson have employed people who didn't have the magic 50 hours, but only because they were desperate and conveniently dropped their own rule when it suited them. This is just another example of the lack of integrity in the management there.
kiwi1011fe summed it up well when he said "I am after all still a New Zealander and it was only due to timing and the situation in NZ avaition at that time that made me look elsewhere to seek the job I had trained to do!"
We trained in New Zealand and we are New Zealanders. We chose the hard road when we went overseas, and our gamble paid off in most cases. When we come back, all we ask is a fair shot at a job here, and not to be discriminated against by a rule that serves absolutely no useful purpose, other than to exclude returning Kiwis. That sort of unfair and bigoted attitude has no place in New Zealand.
I'm just glad I was able to bypass Air Nelson and move on to better things.
When I was a young instructor, it was virtually impossible to get anything approaching an airline job unless you had already been instructing for several years. When I left, my flying buddy and I were instructing on Tomahawks.
So I decided to go to the UK, where there was a massive pilot shortage at the time.
Looking back, it would have been a lot easier to have stayed here. First, I had to travel to the UK, and then survive there while not earning any money while getting a UK licence. it cost about NZ$20,000 just for that.
Then I had to get a UK licence, which basically took a year even with first time passes in everything. The Brits wouldn't give me any credit for my NZ CPL, so I had to sit all the ATPL exams and 4 flight tests to get a UK CPL. That cost me well over NZ$100,000.
A week after I passed my General Flying Tests, I had a job flying a turboprop. But it had cost me over NZ$120,000, taken a year, and been a pretty hard time in a new country where I knew nobody.
Two years later, I had 1500 hours turbine and my mate back home was still instructing in the Tomahawk.
Now the idea that any of this was "taking the easy route" is, quite frankly, offensive. it would have been a lot easier to have just stayed in NZ, enjoy the lifestyle and hope there was a Metro in my future somewhere.
A few years later I tried to go back to NZ, to find that I wasn't welcome because I had dared to go overseas. So I traded what I wanted - right seat of a Saab - for a jet command in Europe.
So my point is this. A Kiwi going overseas, pays a very high price in doing so. He or she gets some valuable experience flying in a far more demanding environment, but finds that good old parochial NZ doesn't recognise or value that experience - probably the only profession in the country that takes such a view. Every other profession richly rewards overseas experience, but not aviation.
Sure, Air Nelson have employed people who didn't have the magic 50 hours, but only because they were desperate and conveniently dropped their own rule when it suited them. This is just another example of the lack of integrity in the management there.
kiwi1011fe summed it up well when he said "I am after all still a New Zealander and it was only due to timing and the situation in NZ avaition at that time that made me look elsewhere to seek the job I had trained to do!"
We trained in New Zealand and we are New Zealanders. We chose the hard road when we went overseas, and our gamble paid off in most cases. When we come back, all we ask is a fair shot at a job here, and not to be discriminated against by a rule that serves absolutely no useful purpose, other than to exclude returning Kiwis. That sort of unfair and bigoted attitude has no place in New Zealand.
I'm just glad I was able to bypass Air Nelson and move on to better things.
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: NZ
Posts: 41
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"I'm just glad I was able to bypass Air Nelson and move on to better things."
Hey Remoak (and the others), we made our beds, now lie in them. You chose the overseas option, shiny jets, big money etc. Don't start whinging when the hard times come.
And just so you don't start on me, I did exactly the same as you. I did all my licences, instructing etc in NZ, then went to pommyland and did it all over again. I ended up back in NZ, and am still in the RHS of a "little turboprop". There isn't a day goes by when I'm flying into AKL or CHC and see Emirates etc and wonder if I shouldn't be using my JAR ATPL. But I've chosen to stay in NZ for the lifestyle, family etc and I accept the downside of that decision (including the crap money).
You guys need to do the same. Things will pick up again and soon you'll be flying your shiny jets in demanding airspace and getting paid the big bucks.
Hey Remoak (and the others), we made our beds, now lie in them. You chose the overseas option, shiny jets, big money etc. Don't start whinging when the hard times come.
And just so you don't start on me, I did exactly the same as you. I did all my licences, instructing etc in NZ, then went to pommyland and did it all over again. I ended up back in NZ, and am still in the RHS of a "little turboprop". There isn't a day goes by when I'm flying into AKL or CHC and see Emirates etc and wonder if I shouldn't be using my JAR ATPL. But I've chosen to stay in NZ for the lifestyle, family etc and I accept the downside of that decision (including the crap money).
You guys need to do the same. Things will pick up again and soon you'll be flying your shiny jets in demanding airspace and getting paid the big bucks.
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: newzealand
Posts: 48
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Factoring in Money
Remoak,
I respect all the hard work that you put in and understand your argument regarding the unfair treatment of returning kiwi pilots. You have my sympathy.
But, maybe, there might be a chance that someone in management would be resentful against someone who could afford to take as much time off as you, ‘a year‘, and spend as much as you did, ‘120,000$’ on an overseas excursion to gain not an advantage over other pilots as such, but an optional avenue that is only possible for people with a large amount of money and time to spend. And, this is after all the money you spent to gain your original NZ pilots licence. I believe the majority of management and pilots would not be able to afford such an additional option in gaining aviation/management education such as the one you described about your own self. Maybe management know that people in your situation have spent a large amount of money over and above the standard amount of money one would spend to gain a NZ CPL, And, perhaps this is one factor in deciding the hiring of pilots.
FS1200
I respect all the hard work that you put in and understand your argument regarding the unfair treatment of returning kiwi pilots. You have my sympathy.
But, maybe, there might be a chance that someone in management would be resentful against someone who could afford to take as much time off as you, ‘a year‘, and spend as much as you did, ‘120,000$’ on an overseas excursion to gain not an advantage over other pilots as such, but an optional avenue that is only possible for people with a large amount of money and time to spend. And, this is after all the money you spent to gain your original NZ pilots licence. I believe the majority of management and pilots would not be able to afford such an additional option in gaining aviation/management education such as the one you described about your own self. Maybe management know that people in your situation have spent a large amount of money over and above the standard amount of money one would spend to gain a NZ CPL, And, perhaps this is one factor in deciding the hiring of pilots.
FS1200
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: back of the crew bus
Posts: 1,312
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Captain Condom
I am not in any way whinging about "hard times". As I have already said, I would happily have accepted a RHS in whatever Air Nelson had at that time, but was prevented from doing so by the rule of theirs that we have been discussing. My ONLY issue is with this discriminatory rule (and those who put it into play).
And for your info, I didn't lose my job in Europe. For mainly family reasons, I chose to return home and do other things (that make more money than I suspect you are earning - as you say yourself, the pay at the bottom of the heap is crap).
donkey123 and flysaucer1200
You shouldn't assume, flysaucer1200. I didn't use daddys money or win the lottery. I planned my move, and went out and got the highest-paid job that I could find, which at the time was as a sales rep. I worked very hard indeed and was successful, and that is where the money came from that allowed me to make the move. Most of my mates earned their money in Oz, either in the opal mines or driving truck trains. The point is that we went out and earned the money we needed, and we lived lives of abject poverty until we got our first airline jobs (until quite a long time after that, actually).
You say that what I did is only possible with large amounts of money. Quite right - but I went out and earned it, nobody gave me anything.
Despite what you think, anybody can do what I did if they want it badly enough.
So please explain why I should be penalised in the job market by a manager who is resentful of the fact that I got off my arse, put in the hard yards, and made my dream happen? All by my little old self?
And please explain to me why your net worth should have anything at all to do with your job prospects? Are we a Communist state now?
I am not in any way whinging about "hard times". As I have already said, I would happily have accepted a RHS in whatever Air Nelson had at that time, but was prevented from doing so by the rule of theirs that we have been discussing. My ONLY issue is with this discriminatory rule (and those who put it into play).
And for your info, I didn't lose my job in Europe. For mainly family reasons, I chose to return home and do other things (that make more money than I suspect you are earning - as you say yourself, the pay at the bottom of the heap is crap).
donkey123 and flysaucer1200
You shouldn't assume, flysaucer1200. I didn't use daddys money or win the lottery. I planned my move, and went out and got the highest-paid job that I could find, which at the time was as a sales rep. I worked very hard indeed and was successful, and that is where the money came from that allowed me to make the move. Most of my mates earned their money in Oz, either in the opal mines or driving truck trains. The point is that we went out and earned the money we needed, and we lived lives of abject poverty until we got our first airline jobs (until quite a long time after that, actually).
You say that what I did is only possible with large amounts of money. Quite right - but I went out and earned it, nobody gave me anything.
Despite what you think, anybody can do what I did if they want it badly enough.
So please explain why I should be penalised in the job market by a manager who is resentful of the fact that I got off my arse, put in the hard yards, and made my dream happen? All by my little old self?
And please explain to me why your net worth should have anything at all to do with your job prospects? Are we a Communist state now?
Question for remoak.
Do you disagree that hiring someone from GA in NZ is good for the local industry?
As stated earlier, I don't think the 50 hr rule should be a firm one, but I do think there should be a heavy bias towards local candidates.
Also, you keep mentioning how much busier the European airspace is etc., but, just to throw the idea out there, perhaps its the other end of the scale that they are worried about such as remote and/or uncontrolled aerodromes, or maybe just the slightly different radio procedures.
All stuff that you would pick up in, well, about 50 hrs of local flying.
Do you disagree that hiring someone from GA in NZ is good for the local industry?
As stated earlier, I don't think the 50 hr rule should be a firm one, but I do think there should be a heavy bias towards local candidates.
Also, you keep mentioning how much busier the European airspace is etc., but, just to throw the idea out there, perhaps its the other end of the scale that they are worried about such as remote and/or uncontrolled aerodromes, or maybe just the slightly different radio procedures.
All stuff that you would pick up in, well, about 50 hrs of local flying.
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: back of the crew bus
Posts: 1,312
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
glekichi
And an answer for you...
Yes, I do. The point I think you are missing is that we all came from NZ GA, we all paid money into the local aviation economy. If you look at it from the viewpoint of simply trying to feed the flight schools, you miss the wider picture, which is that folk returning home have great experience, which is also good for the local economy in an indirect way.
Also, if you follow that logic, airlines should really employ pilots on yearly contracts and just dump them for a fresh set of flight school graduates every year.
All I am really saying is that the playing field should be level, and that pilots should be hired on the basis of skill, ability and experience. To discriminate against any particular group of pilots for any reason is not only essentially illegal - it is stupid. It takes us back to the bad old days when Air NZ refused to hire pilots that wore glasses - amongst other creative employment practices. You really want to go back there?
But it isn't 50 hours of local flying, it is 50 hours of IFR flying in NZ airspace (or it was when I last enquired). This is completely pointless, as NZ procedures all comply with ICAO PANS OPS II, in other words they are exactly the same as the procedures in Europe. There is nothing that is really different here, other than the density and complexity of the traffic and ATC structures, and one or two quaint local practices.
Even if it WAS 50 hours of local flying, there is nothing in NZ that you can't also find in Europe. Short, one-way strips in the Scottish Islands, alpine flying in the Swiss and Austrian Alps and Pyrenees... and weather that is generally more extreme than you see here in NZ. When was the last time anywhere in NZ got below -30C or above 40C? Both are relatively common in Europe.
The most amusing aspect of the Air Nelson rule is that if any of those defending it had ever actually set foot outside NZ, they would know it was bollocks!
And an answer for you...
Do you disagree that hiring someone from GA in NZ is good for the local industry?
Also, if you follow that logic, airlines should really employ pilots on yearly contracts and just dump them for a fresh set of flight school graduates every year.
All I am really saying is that the playing field should be level, and that pilots should be hired on the basis of skill, ability and experience. To discriminate against any particular group of pilots for any reason is not only essentially illegal - it is stupid. It takes us back to the bad old days when Air NZ refused to hire pilots that wore glasses - amongst other creative employment practices. You really want to go back there?
All stuff that you would pick up in, well, about 50 hrs of local flying.
Even if it WAS 50 hours of local flying, there is nothing in NZ that you can't also find in Europe. Short, one-way strips in the Scottish Islands, alpine flying in the Swiss and Austrian Alps and Pyrenees... and weather that is generally more extreme than you see here in NZ. When was the last time anywhere in NZ got below -30C or above 40C? Both are relatively common in Europe.
The most amusing aspect of the Air Nelson rule is that if any of those defending it had ever actually set foot outside NZ, they would know it was bollocks!
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: The Land Downunder
Posts: 765
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This topic tends to come around every 6 months or so here rehashing the same old arguments. I too completed all of my training in New Zealand at a time when the market for entry positions was in the dumps. I could have spent my time and energy seeking that first job in New Zealand or try other avenues. I decided at the time to move overseas (UK) and travel a bit after losing my non flying job in Wellington. This was not the 'easy' option that so many of you are saying it is. I worked in London for 12 months and saved every penny that I could get my hands on to convert my licence. 1 year of training, 1 year of of instructing on low wages my first break came in the form of a turboprop job, then 18 months later a job with one of the major carriers where I am now enjoying the RHS of a 777. I often think about returning home but have encountered numerous people who seem to be of the opinion that I some how traded in my rights to ever work in NZ because of my move overseas. Do I care? not really, I made my choice and have had a great time along the way, met some great people, flown some great aircraft and seen every corner of the world that I could hope to. I have found in the last couple of years that jobs can be had downunder, I am currently in the hold pool for Jetstar Aus and was recently offered a position with Jetstar NZ. On getting the offer I realised that I don't want to go 'home' at any cost and turned that position down. I now can't see myself ever returning in a flying capacity to NZ, the industry for me there is too small and inward looking. Good luck to all those that choose to stay and to those that come overseas, each has its merits and only you can decide what is best. Just don't complain once the choice is made.
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: south pacific vagrant
Posts: 1,334
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Remoak
Although I suppose it's about all you can expect from a management straight out of the aero club who have never flown anything bigger than a Dash...
And as for this little jem. The guys that invented the 50hr rule and got Air Nsn off the ground for the most part all came from Safe Air. A Dash8 is a comfy little airconditioned toy compared to what those guys used to trundle around the sky.
A few of them are still there.
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: NZ
Posts: 28
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Remoak.
In my experience. I have found those that have travelled to Europe to seek employment, generally, in one way or the other had the money to do so gifted to them in some way, shape or form. I accept that there are a few exceptions to this. Do I begrudge them for it? No, definitely not. Use every string in your bow I say. But those people generally had an option other than sweeping the hangar floor etc etc etc. Thats all i'm saying, another avenue that most don't.
I agree that anybody should be able to return to NZ, apply to any airline, and if they have "the minerals" so to speak get the job. But I strongly disagree with the conspiracy theory bandied around here that Air NSN's 50 hr policy (if there is still such a thing) is designed to weed out those who "jumped the que".
I believe that whatever their requirements are, they are there to try ensure that whoever joins the company gets up to standard with minimum fuss within the given time frame, is going to get on with his/her colleagues and slot in. Simple.
Hence there are some working in Air NSN that have come from overseas operators and probably others overseas that have been given the "no thanks". Just like there is in NZ GA.
donk
In my experience. I have found those that have travelled to Europe to seek employment, generally, in one way or the other had the money to do so gifted to them in some way, shape or form. I accept that there are a few exceptions to this. Do I begrudge them for it? No, definitely not. Use every string in your bow I say. But those people generally had an option other than sweeping the hangar floor etc etc etc. Thats all i'm saying, another avenue that most don't.
I agree that anybody should be able to return to NZ, apply to any airline, and if they have "the minerals" so to speak get the job. But I strongly disagree with the conspiracy theory bandied around here that Air NSN's 50 hr policy (if there is still such a thing) is designed to weed out those who "jumped the que".
I believe that whatever their requirements are, they are there to try ensure that whoever joins the company gets up to standard with minimum fuss within the given time frame, is going to get on with his/her colleagues and slot in. Simple.
Hence there are some working in Air NSN that have come from overseas operators and probably others overseas that have been given the "no thanks". Just like there is in NZ GA.
donk
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: newzealand
Posts: 48
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Remoak
Remoak,
I applaud you fully in your ability to amass wealth. I respect all the hard work you put in and admire very much your determination and dedication to aviation. You, in my eyes would certainly be deserving of a placement into a flying position in NZ.
Assumptions were never made, on my behalf, as to where your tuition money materialized from. I did assume nonetheless, that most kiwi pilots and managers would not be able to afford the amounts quoted in your passage. Whether it be from a factor of time, or ability to conserve money, I’m not sure. Personally, it would take me 3 or 4 years maybe less, to accumulate a saved amount of 120,000$, as you had done. Additionally, another challenge not touched upon in my last blog, was most pilots and managers are not fortunate enough to gain legalized employment in Britain/Europe. Whether that be from lack of correct passport or qualifications I am not sure. But, even with the necessary funds working legitimately in Britain/Europe for Kiwis/Aussies is not unproblematic.
As with penalizations, off course you should not be subjected to it. Maybe a lot of companies are not fully democratic and run with complete objectives, and free of all prejudices etc. Maybe some in NZ are a tad partial in various areas, such as employment. But, NZ, I understand is not a communist state.
I am suggesting that managers who hire are perhaps dictated by this one factor, amongst the others that have been mentioned. The factor of ones ability to afford time and money and I’ll add, EU employment entry Into their aviation lifestyle. This is perhaps something that might influence decisions inside indignant managers minds. But, in my belief Remoak, it shouldn’t at all. And, you should be judged equally as your uncharted peers here are.
FS1200
I applaud you fully in your ability to amass wealth. I respect all the hard work you put in and admire very much your determination and dedication to aviation. You, in my eyes would certainly be deserving of a placement into a flying position in NZ.
Assumptions were never made, on my behalf, as to where your tuition money materialized from. I did assume nonetheless, that most kiwi pilots and managers would not be able to afford the amounts quoted in your passage. Whether it be from a factor of time, or ability to conserve money, I’m not sure. Personally, it would take me 3 or 4 years maybe less, to accumulate a saved amount of 120,000$, as you had done. Additionally, another challenge not touched upon in my last blog, was most pilots and managers are not fortunate enough to gain legalized employment in Britain/Europe. Whether that be from lack of correct passport or qualifications I am not sure. But, even with the necessary funds working legitimately in Britain/Europe for Kiwis/Aussies is not unproblematic.
As with penalizations, off course you should not be subjected to it. Maybe a lot of companies are not fully democratic and run with complete objectives, and free of all prejudices etc. Maybe some in NZ are a tad partial in various areas, such as employment. But, NZ, I understand is not a communist state.
I am suggesting that managers who hire are perhaps dictated by this one factor, amongst the others that have been mentioned. The factor of ones ability to afford time and money and I’ll add, EU employment entry Into their aviation lifestyle. This is perhaps something that might influence decisions inside indignant managers minds. But, in my belief Remoak, it shouldn’t at all. And, you should be judged equally as your uncharted peers here are.
FS1200
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: back of the crew bus
Posts: 1,312
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
donkey123
If I am reading you correctly, you are suggesting that they people with the ability to earn big bucks are somehow qualified in areas that ensure a high income.
All I can say is that I was in no way qualified to be a sales rep, and my friends had no qualifications to work in Oz at the opal mines or driving trucks (apart from an HT licence). You simply have to want an aviation career enough to get off your chuff, find the high-income (and often unpleasant) jobs, and make your career happen. You make your own luck.
flysaucer1200
Sure, if you kept your present job and only worked 8 hour days or whatever. But if you really wanted to earn faster, and were prepared to do unpleasant work for long hours, and live frugally while doing it, I'm sure you could save 120K in a year or less (as many have).
OK, but any HR professional will tell you that bias is the very last consideration that should be allowed when selecting employees. You select on the basis of skill, experience, and whatever psychometric tests are in vogue this month. If you are allowing your decision-making process be influenced as you have described, you shouldn't be selecting staff at all.
Mind you it isn't a perfect world, and the Air Nelson management could hardly be described as perfect, so... nobody is surprised when what you describe happens!
But those people generally had an option other than sweeping the hangar floor etc etc etc.
All I can say is that I was in no way qualified to be a sales rep, and my friends had no qualifications to work in Oz at the opal mines or driving trucks (apart from an HT licence). You simply have to want an aviation career enough to get off your chuff, find the high-income (and often unpleasant) jobs, and make your career happen. You make your own luck.
flysaucer1200
Personally, it would take me 3 or 4 years maybe less, to accumulate a saved amount of 120,000$
This is perhaps something that might influence decisions inside indignant managers minds
Mind you it isn't a perfect world, and the Air Nelson management could hardly be described as perfect, so... nobody is surprised when what you describe happens!
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Someday I will find a place to stop
Posts: 1,024
Likes: 0
Received 18 Likes
on
6 Posts
I don't know where the NZ$120k figure has come from, I got the UK licence, IR, Instructor, MCC for UK£15k. I worked there for a year before doing the courses.
Note in my original post at the start of this thread I used " " from a phone conversation. And I stand by it. Why don't you call Air Nelson and pretend to be an overseas pilot interested in coming back, don't just ask for the application form, ask what your chances are for interview too!
Yes, there are some 'ex overseas kiwis' in Air Nelson.
Were they hired when the supply was a little low?
Do tell, any recent ones hired?
When times were tough in NZ for aviation, when I had low hours I got off my butt and did something about it. I am not saying I should have a job by rights because of the experience, but I should not be prevented from having a crack at it. That IS discrimination.
I can't seem to find them, can you please post the references to this exact same topic from the past?
But I strongly disagree with the conspiracy theory bandied around here that Air NSN's 50 hr policy (if there is still such a thing) is designed to weed out those who "jumped the que".
Yes, there are some 'ex overseas kiwis' in Air Nelson.
Were they hired when the supply was a little low?
Do tell, any recent ones hired?
When times were tough in NZ for aviation, when I had low hours I got off my butt and did something about it. I am not saying I should have a job by rights because of the experience, but I should not be prevented from having a crack at it. That IS discrimination.
This topic tends to come around every 6 months or so here rehashing the same old arguments.
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: back of the crew bus
Posts: 1,312
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I don't know where the NZ$120k figure has come from, I got the UK licence, IR, Instructor, MCC for UK£15k.
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Surrounding the localizer
Posts: 2,200
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
1 Post
I'd still like to hear from anyone who actually has been through the process recently..mostly for alturistic reasons as the chances of me appling to Air NSN are now virtually zero , but part of me also doesn't want to believe I'd be discriminated against on the basis of my work history.
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: NZ
Posts: 28
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Remoak
Remoak quote:
"If I am reading you correctly, you are suggesting that the people with the ability to earn big bucks are somehow qualified in areas that ensure a high income?"
No. Like I said, in my experience every individual that I have known who went to the UK had the money gifted to them. I accept there are more than likely exceptions to this, you being one of them.
I guess its irrelevant in this discussion how people came to be actually living and working in the UK. But I still standby my last post in that I don't believe any individual who has the experience/qualifications and would fit in etc would be grossly penalised because he/she had travelled to find employment overseas.
There are people in Air NSN without 50hrs NZ IFR. Fact. Were they Lucky?Unlucky? Was Air NSN just desperate and taking anyone with an instrument rating and a pulse? Maybe they promised JH that they would go on an individual? Or maybe, just maybe, they were right for the job at that particular time...?
Donk (looking through rose coloured glasses)
"If I am reading you correctly, you are suggesting that the people with the ability to earn big bucks are somehow qualified in areas that ensure a high income?"
No. Like I said, in my experience every individual that I have known who went to the UK had the money gifted to them. I accept there are more than likely exceptions to this, you being one of them.
I guess its irrelevant in this discussion how people came to be actually living and working in the UK. But I still standby my last post in that I don't believe any individual who has the experience/qualifications and would fit in etc would be grossly penalised because he/she had travelled to find employment overseas.
There are people in Air NSN without 50hrs NZ IFR. Fact. Were they Lucky?Unlucky? Was Air NSN just desperate and taking anyone with an instrument rating and a pulse? Maybe they promised JH that they would go on an individual? Or maybe, just maybe, they were right for the job at that particular time...?
Donk (looking through rose coloured glasses)
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: The Dog House
Posts: 160
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There are heaps of people who got into Air Nelson without the 50hours kiwi instrument time.
Just let SB know your keen. Dont be a w**ker and cocky just because you have some jet time, and stay in contact.
Hell if you want the job that bad go hire an IFR 172 and go burn some holes in the sky. It would cost you f**k all with the pounds you have been earning.
It looks like Air Nelsons pay will be about the same as Jetstar NZ, and they wont charge you for the rating.
Just let SB know your keen. Dont be a w**ker and cocky just because you have some jet time, and stay in contact.
Hell if you want the job that bad go hire an IFR 172 and go burn some holes in the sky. It would cost you f**k all with the pounds you have been earning.
It looks like Air Nelsons pay will be about the same as Jetstar NZ, and they wont charge you for the rating.