Footballer kicked in goolies failed TEM theory exam
Great first post Icarus.
Keg, I have to disagree with you regarding "tiredness" as being something worth briefing. Go to the Flight Safety Foundation and take a look at their ALAR tool kit.
http://www.mtc.gob.pe/portal/transpo...df/fsf_rat.pdf
Being tired might not be the result of turning up to work tired. Long duty periods mean you may feel much different at the end of a long day/night. Complacency and the effects of fatigue are risk factors that can be worth highlighting. If a guy mentions Terrain as a risk, I am sure you could use the same arguement of "what should we do differently". I think challenging a guy for raising a risk may be more counterproductive than hearing him out.
Keg, I have to disagree with you regarding "tiredness" as being something worth briefing. Go to the Flight Safety Foundation and take a look at their ALAR tool kit.
http://www.mtc.gob.pe/portal/transpo...df/fsf_rat.pdf
Being tired might not be the result of turning up to work tired. Long duty periods mean you may feel much different at the end of a long day/night. Complacency and the effects of fatigue are risk factors that can be worth highlighting. If a guy mentions Terrain as a risk, I am sure you could use the same arguement of "what should we do differently". I think challenging a guy for raising a risk may be more counterproductive than hearing him out.
Nunc est bibendum
kelly, I'm averse to 'it's late, I'm tired' when used as a throw away line with no consideration given as to the strategies to mitigate it. I'm averse to the 'strategy' articulated being stuff that should be done all the time. I'd be much more impressed if the person said 'I'm tired and so I'll possibly make some errors' which is the type of sharing information that I like. I'd be even more impressed if they mentioned that well before the departure or arrival briefing. I suggest that if that's the first time it's rated a mention then it's been managed quite INappropriately. It should have been discussed and managed much earlier. If it was dealt with earlier then why do we need to flog ourselves with it yet again?
'Terrain is a threat, there is no weather, can you go to terrain switch now'.
'Terrain is a threat, there is some weather around, can you go to terrain switch at 10'000 feet'.
'Terrain is a threat, there is heaps of weather around, can you go to terrain when we're cleared to a level below LSALT'.
Somehow I think that they're further apart than you think.
Still, rather than get caught in semantics, let's go back to first principles. Threats are things that require crew management and are external to the crew. Errors are things the crew stuffs up.
If a guy mentions Terrain as a risk, I am sure you could use the same arguement of "what should we do differently".
'Terrain is a threat, there is some weather around, can you go to terrain switch at 10'000 feet'.
'Terrain is a threat, there is heaps of weather around, can you go to terrain when we're cleared to a level below LSALT'.
Somehow I think that they're further apart than you think.
Still, rather than get caught in semantics, let's go back to first principles. Threats are things that require crew management and are external to the crew. Errors are things the crew stuffs up.
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I think some are intepreting Keg as saying that tiredness can't be a "threat" (in the non CRM way) to aviation... of course it can.
I believe it is something that can be appropriate to brief as part of a threat assessment, but ONLY if its done with the consequential mitigator - what are we going to do about it.
I can say "Threats are Terrain, Weather, Crossing an active runway and Tiredness" all day... its useless stuff.
I strongly support the new requirement to identify and discuss threats when done properly, including crossing an active runway (if it is likely to be a threat, such as taxiing in CNS where it can be easily missed). Things like "High terrain around the airport is out to the west. We'll select terrain on one side and WX on the other. If we have any non normal issues we will stay to the east of the airfield" are good briefing practice and result in all pilots being on the same page. But only when terrain really IS an issue.
To the CRM knockers... the problem isn't with CRM, it is the way it is often taught. A session with a really good facilitator makes you look very hard at your own operation, and even the best seem to take something out of the session.
I'm sure with time crew will better understand the intent and not just use throw away lines to meet the requirement.
I believe it is something that can be appropriate to brief as part of a threat assessment, but ONLY if its done with the consequential mitigator - what are we going to do about it.
I can say "Threats are Terrain, Weather, Crossing an active runway and Tiredness" all day... its useless stuff.
I strongly support the new requirement to identify and discuss threats when done properly, including crossing an active runway (if it is likely to be a threat, such as taxiing in CNS where it can be easily missed). Things like "High terrain around the airport is out to the west. We'll select terrain on one side and WX on the other. If we have any non normal issues we will stay to the east of the airfield" are good briefing practice and result in all pilots being on the same page. But only when terrain really IS an issue.
To the CRM knockers... the problem isn't with CRM, it is the way it is often taught. A session with a really good facilitator makes you look very hard at your own operation, and even the best seem to take something out of the session.
I'm sure with time crew will better understand the intent and not just use throw away lines to meet the requirement.
Nunc est bibendum
Fair points 'comfy chairs'.
I have been known on occasion to preface my 'threat' brief with the words 'things that can bite us on the backside during this approach/departure'. That actually enables me to expand on things that I've seen or heard of others stuffing up. These may not be threats in the pure sense of the word- as no management process may be needed- but they could become one later if circumstances change. Crossing an active runway in 'normal' circumstances wouldn't normally be considered a threat but given the config of Cairns then you're right about it being a worthy thing to talk about if it's going to come into play. Why is it a 'threat' and others not? It's something external to the crew (poor airport design) that requires an additional management step to avoid an error. Discussing it when landing on 33 (in the 767) would NOT be relevant.
I have been known on occasion to preface my 'threat' brief with the words 'things that can bite us on the backside during this approach/departure'. That actually enables me to expand on things that I've seen or heard of others stuffing up. These may not be threats in the pure sense of the word- as no management process may be needed- but they could become one later if circumstances change. Crossing an active runway in 'normal' circumstances wouldn't normally be considered a threat but given the config of Cairns then you're right about it being a worthy thing to talk about if it's going to come into play. Why is it a 'threat' and others not? It's something external to the crew (poor airport design) that requires an additional management step to avoid an error. Discussing it when landing on 33 (in the 767) would NOT be relevant.
The first step in dealing with any threat is to acknowledge it. If someone says "It's been a long day and I'm tired" they're saying double check my work, I may be more prone to making errors. My judgement may even be impaired. Don't even think about practicing that manual thrust, raw data ILS and let's not do 340kts to 5100 feet, even if we're offered it. CRM is all about acknowledging that we are human and make mistakes and letting the other guy know that, at the moment, we are more human than normal.
I certainly hope that mentioning "I'm tired tonight, watch me" doesn't invoke any negative conotation like "well weren't you rested?" etc.
I certainly hope that mentioning "I'm tired tonight, watch me" doesn't invoke any negative conotation like "well weren't you rested?" etc.
Nunc est bibendum
If someone says "It's been a long day and I'm tired" they're saying double check my work, I may be more prone to making errors.
I'm not averse to saying 'It's the last sector of a five day domestic trip and we're a bit 'over it' so let's work hard to make this a good one' but it ain't a threat and I'd never mention it as part of the 'threats' part of the briefing.
Sorry Dawg, having seen the changed behaviour in some individuals as a result of experiential exercises I can attest to the value of properly conducted scenarios. Next you'll be telling us that LOFT- which is close to the same thing- isn't worthwhile either.
