Bankstown Closed 4 Ccts
Join Date: May 2002
Location: australia
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Clearedtoenter,
"All I'm suggesting is that if there is a staff shortage leading to the currently unsafe situations at both CN and BK"
There is definitely a staff shortage, no 'ifs'. ASA have publicly acknowledged this, and the CEO has blamed the previous mangement (even though he has been there for going on four years) and a lot of the old management faces are still there. His rhetoric has now ramped up that we now have enough controllers but they are in the wrong place. Ireland, Germany, Belgium, Middle East ? We would not even be having this dialogue if BK was appropriately staffed.
"Have also visted other places in the world where they don't have such highly qualified chaps but do have high workloads working high intensity small aircraft operations - and it works at least as well as BK"
Love these all encompassing statements. You asked about what qualifications they had, did you? What searation standards they were applying? Or did you stand next to the apron at Oshkosh, with VHF receiver in hand, and gaze in awe at the outstanding job they do there (for a week or so a year), and assume they are lesser qualified than the guys at BK? Where exactly are these places you flippantly talk about and how do you know they are lesser qualified?
"All I'm suggesting is that if there is a staff shortage leading to the currently unsafe situations at both CN and BK, maybe its time to look at some sort of fast track training, even if it does lead to a less qualified and cheaper controller, it has to be better than what we have now. Of course lesser qualified is not really the issue is it? Cheaper? we could not possibly do this fairly simple (but intense) low end ATC operation cheaper AND safer could we? Certainly not whilst we have the current management/union monopolistic bum protecting culture in ASA anyway! "
You continually start off your uninformed comments with "All I'm suggesting" you are not suggesting at all, you are implying that the current ATC course is some kind of 4 year Arts degree in the mating habits of fleas. It is a very intense course with a quite high failure rate. How fast do you think it could be done? Couple of weeks in the classroom, few weeks on the job, and then you're on your own? Pay peanuts and expect under-trained people to turn up and do a very stressful shiftworking job where a mistake could end up in Coroners Court?
How can you describe something as 'fairly simple' and 'intense'? What are the consequences of a mistake?
It is 'fairly simple' to make off-the-cuff, and not thought through, comments.
I am reasonably certain an appendectomy is a fairly simple operation, but I don't want the fast-tracked, less-qualified, surgeon working on my family. Ditto a straight in approach on an RPT jet. I want the guy/girl who is ahead of the game, has been properly trained, properly qualified and has the experience to cope with unusual situations.
What influence do you think Civilair and controllers have had on the lack of staff around Australia? Besides telling management for the last 6+ years that the age demographic of controllers, and the lack of recruitment, will lead us to this point. I think your bashing of the controllers Association is misplaced. ASA and CASA set the bar, Civilair want to make sure, and have very little real input into, into the training delivered. Did you know most of us have had no simulator training in emergency situations, overload traffic,for YEARS due to staff shortages. Our ongoing training to keep us 'up-to-speed' is multiple choice questions on a computer during our breaks.
Are you suggesting that we lower standards, do we get a monthly Breakdown of Separation 'get-out-of-jail-free' card, 'don't have to pass a medical abstention'. How about a slap on the wrist after a controller mistake has led to a near-hit. We'll just go and get another person a couple of weeks training and put them out there. Oh, and we expect them to work for peanuts.
Next time you visit a control facility ask to look at all the Manuals,paperwork,etc that we are required to know and understand. Find someone who didn't make the grade and ask them why they were unable to pass this 'fairly simple' job.
I don't think 'cheaper' comes into it. There are many pilots flying for LCCs, for cheaper, who are as/or more qualified as their mainline peers. Less qualified means we have lowered the bar.Is that what you are really getting at? Why don't we just go with an inferior product and wear the repercussions later. Safety is 'affordable' right up until it isn't.
You remind me of those passengers, who the media find after a flying incident, who are given some 'aviation expert' standing because they have flown down the back half a dozen times in the last year, and are quoted as though they were on the flightdeck.
'All I'm suggesting' is that you arm yourself with a better understanding of what you are talking about, that way you could make some constructive 'suggestions'. It's 'fairly simple', one does get tired of well meaning amateurs with little appreciation of what others do. I'm probably too 'intense'.
"All I'm suggesting is that if there is a staff shortage leading to the currently unsafe situations at both CN and BK"
There is definitely a staff shortage, no 'ifs'. ASA have publicly acknowledged this, and the CEO has blamed the previous mangement (even though he has been there for going on four years) and a lot of the old management faces are still there. His rhetoric has now ramped up that we now have enough controllers but they are in the wrong place. Ireland, Germany, Belgium, Middle East ? We would not even be having this dialogue if BK was appropriately staffed.
"Have also visted other places in the world where they don't have such highly qualified chaps but do have high workloads working high intensity small aircraft operations - and it works at least as well as BK"
Love these all encompassing statements. You asked about what qualifications they had, did you? What searation standards they were applying? Or did you stand next to the apron at Oshkosh, with VHF receiver in hand, and gaze in awe at the outstanding job they do there (for a week or so a year), and assume they are lesser qualified than the guys at BK? Where exactly are these places you flippantly talk about and how do you know they are lesser qualified?
"All I'm suggesting is that if there is a staff shortage leading to the currently unsafe situations at both CN and BK, maybe its time to look at some sort of fast track training, even if it does lead to a less qualified and cheaper controller, it has to be better than what we have now. Of course lesser qualified is not really the issue is it? Cheaper? we could not possibly do this fairly simple (but intense) low end ATC operation cheaper AND safer could we? Certainly not whilst we have the current management/union monopolistic bum protecting culture in ASA anyway! "
You continually start off your uninformed comments with "All I'm suggesting" you are not suggesting at all, you are implying that the current ATC course is some kind of 4 year Arts degree in the mating habits of fleas. It is a very intense course with a quite high failure rate. How fast do you think it could be done? Couple of weeks in the classroom, few weeks on the job, and then you're on your own? Pay peanuts and expect under-trained people to turn up and do a very stressful shiftworking job where a mistake could end up in Coroners Court?
How can you describe something as 'fairly simple' and 'intense'? What are the consequences of a mistake?
It is 'fairly simple' to make off-the-cuff, and not thought through, comments.
I am reasonably certain an appendectomy is a fairly simple operation, but I don't want the fast-tracked, less-qualified, surgeon working on my family. Ditto a straight in approach on an RPT jet. I want the guy/girl who is ahead of the game, has been properly trained, properly qualified and has the experience to cope with unusual situations.
What influence do you think Civilair and controllers have had on the lack of staff around Australia? Besides telling management for the last 6+ years that the age demographic of controllers, and the lack of recruitment, will lead us to this point. I think your bashing of the controllers Association is misplaced. ASA and CASA set the bar, Civilair want to make sure, and have very little real input into, into the training delivered. Did you know most of us have had no simulator training in emergency situations, overload traffic,for YEARS due to staff shortages. Our ongoing training to keep us 'up-to-speed' is multiple choice questions on a computer during our breaks.
Are you suggesting that we lower standards, do we get a monthly Breakdown of Separation 'get-out-of-jail-free' card, 'don't have to pass a medical abstention'. How about a slap on the wrist after a controller mistake has led to a near-hit. We'll just go and get another person a couple of weeks training and put them out there. Oh, and we expect them to work for peanuts.
Next time you visit a control facility ask to look at all the Manuals,paperwork,etc that we are required to know and understand. Find someone who didn't make the grade and ask them why they were unable to pass this 'fairly simple' job.
I don't think 'cheaper' comes into it. There are many pilots flying for LCCs, for cheaper, who are as/or more qualified as their mainline peers. Less qualified means we have lowered the bar.Is that what you are really getting at? Why don't we just go with an inferior product and wear the repercussions later. Safety is 'affordable' right up until it isn't.
You remind me of those passengers, who the media find after a flying incident, who are given some 'aviation expert' standing because they have flown down the back half a dozen times in the last year, and are quoted as though they were on the flightdeck.
'All I'm suggesting' is that you arm yourself with a better understanding of what you are talking about, that way you could make some constructive 'suggestions'. It's 'fairly simple', one does get tired of well meaning amateurs with little appreciation of what others do. I'm probably too 'intense'.
Last edited by max1; 11th Feb 2009 at 00:39.
As always max1, whether you are posting on Pprune, CivilAir or our own ASA intranet , well thought out responses containing valuable information. Keep up the good fight, and eyes on the prize!!
Cheers keepem'
Cheers keepem'
When I was last down at my flying club the Notam was up, that would be 2 weekends ago. Don't see why they would cancel it between now and then... having said that don't see how you can let staff shortages get this bad
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"Is controlling (I use the term loosely) mostly light GA traffic at a small secondary airport in the suburbs in a microscopic control zone, where aircraft are responsible for their own separation, that difficult?"
Max1 has covered everything but I'll just reinforce the point: GAAP tower is one of the hardest jobs in Australian ATC. Saying 'how hard could it be' shows a complete lack of understanding, not amazing insight.
Max1 has covered everything but I'll just reinforce the point: GAAP tower is one of the hardest jobs in Australian ATC. Saying 'how hard could it be' shows a complete lack of understanding, not amazing insight.
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Well Max 1, I seem to have pressed a button or two there... that was a very long and irate response... Sorry, I'm just another of those idiots who knows nothing... but I do hate being put in a situation on a daily basis that I think is unsafe..
Obviously then, the current unsafe situation at CN and BK, is all ASA's fault and nothing to do with outdated overprotective, monopolistic work practices! Whatever, the answer is not in restricting the activities of legitimate GA businesses. There has to be changes that will allow the industry to function safely, efficiently and competitively. Yes, agreed, GAAPs are extemely busy and stressful workplaces but the actual air traffic processes are quite simple (there are very few clearances a GAAP controller actually can give, they don't have the use of radar and the rest is friendly helpful advice and 'take care but no responsibility'!) Those processes really do not demand a few incredibly qualified expensive elite controllers - just well trained, competent, safe folk who know what they are doing and obviously lots more than there are now. Go to a busy club airfield in (say) the UK. At the weekends you can quite likely find fairly intense traffic, with maybe just a volunteer PPL or two in what might pass as a tower, giving advice about wind direction circuit in use and whos where doing what. Sure, they cannot give clearances and cannot 'control' anything but that's all that's happening at CN in the week nowadays, except with a certain gentleman in a tail dragger giving unofficial helpful advice from time to time! Someone trained and competent but not necessarily an ATC, actually in the tower giving that type of advice would enhance safety enormously. An empty tower with 10 in the circuit(s) indulging in a variety of creative circuit manouvers on all sorts of different runways, going in several different directions is not the answer.
And before there are even more irate union responses, dont worry, I'm out of this one now. - Its just time the self interested bum covering and book passing stopped on all sides. We have a serious safety issue here but no doubt it will be all down to pilot error and ASA Managment when the inevitable does occur!
PS Its great you bought up Oskosh as an example of what can be achieved
Obviously then, the current unsafe situation at CN and BK, is all ASA's fault and nothing to do with outdated overprotective, monopolistic work practices! Whatever, the answer is not in restricting the activities of legitimate GA businesses. There has to be changes that will allow the industry to function safely, efficiently and competitively. Yes, agreed, GAAPs are extemely busy and stressful workplaces but the actual air traffic processes are quite simple (there are very few clearances a GAAP controller actually can give, they don't have the use of radar and the rest is friendly helpful advice and 'take care but no responsibility'!) Those processes really do not demand a few incredibly qualified expensive elite controllers - just well trained, competent, safe folk who know what they are doing and obviously lots more than there are now. Go to a busy club airfield in (say) the UK. At the weekends you can quite likely find fairly intense traffic, with maybe just a volunteer PPL or two in what might pass as a tower, giving advice about wind direction circuit in use and whos where doing what. Sure, they cannot give clearances and cannot 'control' anything but that's all that's happening at CN in the week nowadays, except with a certain gentleman in a tail dragger giving unofficial helpful advice from time to time! Someone trained and competent but not necessarily an ATC, actually in the tower giving that type of advice would enhance safety enormously. An empty tower with 10 in the circuit(s) indulging in a variety of creative circuit manouvers on all sorts of different runways, going in several different directions is not the answer.
And before there are even more irate union responses, dont worry, I'm out of this one now. - Its just time the self interested bum covering and book passing stopped on all sides. We have a serious safety issue here but no doubt it will be all down to pilot error and ASA Managment when the inevitable does occur!
PS Its great you bought up Oskosh as an example of what can be achieved
Join Date: May 2002
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Clearedtoenter,
It was a long post to attempt to cover off your concerns.
Let me see if I've got your argument straight. You believe CN and BK are unsafe, because there is no ATC at CN, and BK is understaffed leading to delays that are not the fault of the controllers working there. Please elaborate exactly where you feel things are unsafe. Have you reported this to CASA, outlining your concerns. We are all responsible for Aviation safety.
"Obviously then, the current unsafe situation at CN and BK, is all ASA's fault and nothing to do with outdated overprotective, monopolistic work practices!"
Could you please enlarge on what these practices are. Are you actually blaming the controllers Association if CASA and ICAO (to which we are a signatory) mandate what control services are required. Did you know we have contractors working ATC?
The reason we have unacceptable delays at BK is that there are not the numbers of required controllers to do the job. How can Civilair be blamed for this. You seem to have the idea that ATC is some kind of old BLF-type rort where you don't get a start without a union ticket. What a load of rot.
Civilair has been imploring ASA for years to get more controllers( membership of Civilair is up to the individual), and controllers have been working constant O/T to hold things together. As in any business, it is cheaper to pay O/T than hire new people, ASA have been abusing controllers ethos of not going TIBA to improve the bottom line. Many controllers have had enough. There are still large amounts of O/T being worked , some rosters have many vacant shifts when published, this is before any illness has occurred. Most people have membership of Civilair for the Loss of Licence benefit, and that if there is an incident that Civilair will support the individual. ASA have a track record of looking after themselves first and the controller second. Read the transcript of the Benalla inquest.
Your answer to this problem is to do away with ATC and get in -
"Someone trained and competent but not necessarily an ATC"
Who does the training and who decides competence?
Who will indemnify these persons against any potential lawsuit in regards to any real or perceived error. What do you believe is a fair amount to pay these people, remembering they will be working weekends and shiftwork?
If you are unhappy with the situation at BK you should get together with the other users of BK who are of a like mind and lobby for ATC to be removed. God knows we could use them elsewhere. You could then organise yourselves to get appropriately trained and qualified competent people in to do this 'fairly simple' job. Don't forget to maintain the equipment, keep the required disaster plans current with the fire/ambulance/police, keep your 'no frills' claytons 'controllers' appropriately trained and rated, and keep the aeroplanes apart . You could have first go at doing the job, what do you think you're worth?
It is no skin off our nose, if you don't want ATC there and think you can get a cheaper alternative my advice is to go for it. Just don't blame controllers (Civilair) for ASAs lack of planning.
It was a long post to attempt to cover off your concerns.
Let me see if I've got your argument straight. You believe CN and BK are unsafe, because there is no ATC at CN, and BK is understaffed leading to delays that are not the fault of the controllers working there. Please elaborate exactly where you feel things are unsafe. Have you reported this to CASA, outlining your concerns. We are all responsible for Aviation safety.
"Obviously then, the current unsafe situation at CN and BK, is all ASA's fault and nothing to do with outdated overprotective, monopolistic work practices!"
Could you please enlarge on what these practices are. Are you actually blaming the controllers Association if CASA and ICAO (to which we are a signatory) mandate what control services are required. Did you know we have contractors working ATC?
The reason we have unacceptable delays at BK is that there are not the numbers of required controllers to do the job. How can Civilair be blamed for this. You seem to have the idea that ATC is some kind of old BLF-type rort where you don't get a start without a union ticket. What a load of rot.
Civilair has been imploring ASA for years to get more controllers( membership of Civilair is up to the individual), and controllers have been working constant O/T to hold things together. As in any business, it is cheaper to pay O/T than hire new people, ASA have been abusing controllers ethos of not going TIBA to improve the bottom line. Many controllers have had enough. There are still large amounts of O/T being worked , some rosters have many vacant shifts when published, this is before any illness has occurred. Most people have membership of Civilair for the Loss of Licence benefit, and that if there is an incident that Civilair will support the individual. ASA have a track record of looking after themselves first and the controller second. Read the transcript of the Benalla inquest.
Your answer to this problem is to do away with ATC and get in -
"Someone trained and competent but not necessarily an ATC"
Who does the training and who decides competence?
Who will indemnify these persons against any potential lawsuit in regards to any real or perceived error. What do you believe is a fair amount to pay these people, remembering they will be working weekends and shiftwork?
If you are unhappy with the situation at BK you should get together with the other users of BK who are of a like mind and lobby for ATC to be removed. God knows we could use them elsewhere. You could then organise yourselves to get appropriately trained and qualified competent people in to do this 'fairly simple' job. Don't forget to maintain the equipment, keep the required disaster plans current with the fire/ambulance/police, keep your 'no frills' claytons 'controllers' appropriately trained and rated, and keep the aeroplanes apart . You could have first go at doing the job, what do you think you're worth?
It is no skin off our nose, if you don't want ATC there and think you can get a cheaper alternative my advice is to go for it. Just don't blame controllers (Civilair) for ASAs lack of planning.
Last edited by max1; 12th Feb 2009 at 01:42.
