OCTA Separation Minima in IMC
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OCTA Separation Minima in IMC
I'm wondering if anyone can provide me with references to indicate what the minimum separation standard is while OCTA in IMC. For example, the minimum vertical separation whilst more than one aeroplane is in a holding pattern. Also interested in horizontal separation.
People seem to have extremely varied ideas about what the minimum safe separation is, and I've never seen anything in the AIP or regs to suggest that anything is actually mandated.
With that in mind, I would also be interested to hear what other people's ideas about separation are when operating OCTA in IMC.
People seem to have extremely varied ideas about what the minimum safe separation is, and I've never seen anything in the AIP or regs to suggest that anything is actually mandated.
With that in mind, I would also be interested to hear what other people's ideas about separation are when operating OCTA in IMC.
This is really an ATC question. I just file a plan, talk to centre and, generally, they provide information on traffic, etc.
Many a time OCTA I've become aware of (potentially) conflicting traffic and made up my mind early to be the master of my own fate (either asked the other aircraft to climb or descend or climbed/descended myself).
I think its less a question of separation standard and more about what distance/altitude/time between aircraft requires ATC to mention other traffic to you.
Certainly happy to discuss. Good question...fertile ground for discussion.
HP
Many a time OCTA I've become aware of (potentially) conflicting traffic and made up my mind early to be the master of my own fate (either asked the other aircraft to climb or descend or climbed/descended myself).
I think its less a question of separation standard and more about what distance/altitude/time between aircraft requires ATC to mention other traffic to you.
Certainly happy to discuss. Good question...fertile ground for discussion.
HP
Fantastic thread! Now you are on to something- as it's basically up to the pilot - who could have all of 200 hrs- or less.
Of course with Class E there is a proper standard for IFR to IFR separation but we wouldn't want that because 1) It's not how we have done it in the past , and 2) It won't work in Australia because it won't. !!
Of course with Class E there is a proper standard for IFR to IFR separation but we wouldn't want that because 1) It's not how we have done it in the past , and 2) It won't work in Australia because it won't. !!
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There are numerous approaches where the procedure points you at other traffic.
Imagine a high performance a/c executing a missed approach off the Hamilton Island Rwy 32 VOR.
Ayers Rock NDB is another and OCTA where high performance equipment operates.
My biggest concern is situations such as this where a published procedure brings you into possible conflict.
What would you descend to in the holding pattern if there was an a/c ahead on the approach ?
Imagine a high performance a/c executing a missed approach off the Hamilton Island Rwy 32 VOR.
Ayers Rock NDB is another and OCTA where high performance equipment operates.
My biggest concern is situations such as this where a published procedure brings you into possible conflict.
What would you descend to in the holding pattern if there was an a/c ahead on the approach ?
Spikey, that's exactly what happened at Orange when a REX RPT and an IFR Baron were performing instrument approaches from different directions in IMC at the same time.
Good radar coverage there but we don't use it or class E due to there being some pretty dumb people in decision making positions in our industry.
Good radar coverage there but we don't use it or class E due to there being some pretty dumb people in decision making positions in our industry.
Bit like the "E" airspace over a certain regional airport that is served by both Virgin and Jetstar, yet no radar to keep the big shiny fast jets with fare paying pax on board away Jo Bloggs in his ultralight.
Funny how that got changed after a B737 and a Tobago went nose to nose! Even more fun when a certain large law firm placed an ad in the local paper asking for people off the flight to come forward so they could start a class action against the goverment agencies involved.
Funny how that got changed after a B737 and a Tobago went nose to nose! Even more fun when a certain large law firm placed an ad in the local paper asking for people off the flight to come forward so they could start a class action against the goverment agencies involved.
10nm and a 1000' feet always works well.
Likewise leave the minimum altitude in the holding pattern clear in case the aircraft on the approach overshoots and has go back to the holding pattern.
These rules do not apply if your are flying a Learjet and going to the Bathurst care races with VIP's on board, and like wise if you a VFR pilot stooging along in marginal VFR conditions don't make any calls entering/transitting the CTAF(R) to save landing fees and talking to those pesky IFR pilots who want to know your position and intentions.
Likewise leave the minimum altitude in the holding pattern clear in case the aircraft on the approach overshoots and has go back to the holding pattern.
These rules do not apply if your are flying a Learjet and going to the Bathurst care races with VIP's on board, and like wise if you a VFR pilot stooging along in marginal VFR conditions don't make any calls entering/transitting the CTAF(R) to save landing fees and talking to those pesky IFR pilots who want to know your position and intentions.
Spikey, that's exactly what happened at Orange when a REX RPT and an IFR Baron were performing instrument approaches from different directions in IMC at the same time.
Doesn't matter what the radar coverage would have been like, they were OCTA and I assume talking to each other, so it's stupidity on the pilot's behalf. Not stupidity on the behalf of someone in an office in Canberra.
morno
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IFR to IFR (and MLJ) OCTA
10 minutes
15 miles
1000 feet
10 minutes
15 miles
1000 feet
Reality is a different scenario and that is what Dick is referring to.
Impossible in a CTAF or in an instrument app octa, great theory from the comfort of an airconditioned taxpayer funded office.
One holds at missed approach finish alt + 1000 till the other gets in.
)
One holds at missed approach finish alt + 1000 till the other gets in
I reckon you get your shot at the approach in order of arrival and if you "miss" you go to the top of the stack until it is your turn to have another go!
Dr
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FTDK
Stay away from anywhere i'm operating IMC OCTA. How is an a/c on MAP going to climb to the top when plonkers are above him??
Plazbot and arm out the window have it sussed.
Stay away from anywhere i'm operating IMC OCTA. How is an a/c on MAP going to climb to the top when plonkers are above him??
Plazbot and arm out the window have it sussed.
Stationair, the incident between the Tobago and the B737 at Launy was a beatup to reverse the NAS2b.
The Tobago pilot had the 737 sited at all times and told the ATSB there was never any chance of a collision.
The 737 crew never sited the Tobago and the incident was only reported because class E introduced a mandatory transponder requirement for that airspace for the first time.
If there was a genuine safety concern we would not have a load of 737's and other jet airlines still flying in riskier class G terminal airspace every day at places like Proserpine and Ballina without even class E let alone a mandatory transponder requirement.
And when a lighty has a transponder and causes an RA to an airline aircraft at one of these class G locations does anyone call for the airspace to be reversed?
Of course not- if we have had this airspace in the past it must never be changed!
Cover up the faults in our existing airspace and beatup any incidents in any changed airspace so we always revert to what the "no change" fundamentalists want.
Fortunately new young pilots and controllers are coming along- they send me private messages of support all the time.
The Tobago pilot had the 737 sited at all times and told the ATSB there was never any chance of a collision.
The 737 crew never sited the Tobago and the incident was only reported because class E introduced a mandatory transponder requirement for that airspace for the first time.
If there was a genuine safety concern we would not have a load of 737's and other jet airlines still flying in riskier class G terminal airspace every day at places like Proserpine and Ballina without even class E let alone a mandatory transponder requirement.
And when a lighty has a transponder and causes an RA to an airline aircraft at one of these class G locations does anyone call for the airspace to be reversed?
Of course not- if we have had this airspace in the past it must never be changed!
Cover up the faults in our existing airspace and beatup any incidents in any changed airspace so we always revert to what the "no change" fundamentalists want.
Fortunately new young pilots and controllers are coming along- they send me private messages of support all the time.
Spikey, the thread starter asked
I gave the answer.
Dick Smith
Don't be painting current and older ATCs as resistent to enhancements of the current arrangements. NAS had issues due to pathetic implementation. I for one am very much in favour of the E airspace model and separating when IMC exists and letting everybody work themselves out in VMC. The US model with the same staffing in similar areas and funding streams to match would be a great addition. The change management process is what needs fixing before the actual airspace.
I'm wondering if anyone can provide me with references to indicate what the minimum separation standard is while OCTA in IMC.
Dick Smith
Fortunately new young pilots and controllers are coming along
Gundog, pull out you DAPs and take a look at NDB approaches. I don't have mine with me but in a quick look at a dozen or so on the web, I cannot find one that has a missed approach that returns you to the aid at the minimum holding alt or into the protected area of the holding pattern at the minimum holding alt. All of the missed approaches I have looked at send you off away from the aid on climb to a minimum safe alt. Most aircraft would be able to find an additional 1000' on their way back to the aid.
Rest assured that should should find yourself sharing the airspace over an approach with me, and you for some reason are unable to manage a climb that will keep you out of my way - this "plonker" will accommodate your big shiny jet, otherwise keep outta my way cause I once you are established in the missed approach, I will be headed down!
Dr
Rest assured that should should find yourself sharing the airspace over an approach with me, and you for some reason are unable to manage a climb that will keep you out of my way - this "plonker" will accommodate your big shiny jet, otherwise keep outta my way cause I once you are established in the missed approach, I will be headed down!
Dr
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Rest assured that should should find yourself sharing the airspace over an approach with me, and you for some reason are unable to manage a climb that will keep you out of my way - this "plonker" will accommodate your big shiny jet, otherwise keep outta my way cause I once you are established in the missed approach, I will be headed down!
Take into account that he has commenced his missed app at 2.5 miles and at 800', where do you think he will get to 3000' ???
I agree with you Arm OTW, that is what should happen, it rarely does unfortunately.
I know of one case where two a/c from the same company nearly clobbered one another because one was holding at the published holding altitude.
Easier in a turbine a/c, a bit harder to get down from 4500 to MSL in an unpressurised piston though.
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FTDK
Without even looking check out Bowen, for one.
Plus what do you expect the MAP aircraft to do fly 10-15nm away climb then track back overhead. 1000' is great if only 1 a/c is stacked above, what about a real stack???
Dont assume my "big shiny jet" is a) big, b) shiny, or c) a jet. your a/b class buggie would probably out climb me anyday.
Your recklessness in dealing with fellow aviators is not required OCTA, please.
Without even looking check out Bowen, for one.
Plus what do you expect the MAP aircraft to do fly 10-15nm away climb then track back overhead. 1000' is great if only 1 a/c is stacked above, what about a real stack???
Dont assume my "big shiny jet" is a) big, b) shiny, or c) a jet. your a/b class buggie would probably out climb me anyday.
Your recklessness in dealing with fellow aviators is not required OCTA, please.