RPT Radio Calls into CTAF - Jet* Today at Ballina
morno,
I appreciate your view as a 'professional IFR driver'. As a fellow 'professional IFR driver (i prefer the term dirty ole motor plane driver in the soup)'. I accept your position, However I will KISS when asked (that sounds rather suspect) But I will not take it to the lowest common denominator every broadcast as my calls would have to be twice as long is respect to the speed ot the delivery and detail, if we are taking the first solo student
Flyer,
If we were aiming at the lowest common denominator then our calls would be twice as long (as mentioned above). A single pilot VFR single having a greater workload than IFR? Ummmmm NO. I have been in both positions (VFR + IFR) No way in the coldest part of hell does a VFR pilot have a greater workload than an IFR pilot, single or mulit crew (exception skydiving). That just simply does not happen, unless the VFR bloke is out in wx he/she should not be.
Tim Tam,
I am not asking you to carry the plates for every single airport between ballina and melbourne. I am asking you to download and study/print the plates for the airports you intend to stop at, assuming you aren't asking an IFR/RPT crew to clarify thier position.
Ok, assuming that your call went unheard. Why did you not repeat it? Running checklists or a call from centre could have been over the top of you. If you aren't going to continue to request clarification until you are answered, then that is as much your downfall as theirs. On occassions it has taken me up to 3 attempts to raise Sunstate/VB/RFDS aircraft. Did I stop at one or two and throw my hands up and want the organisations number? NO!!! I kept trying until I established contact with the crew.
Whether or not some (and only some) VFR drivers give less than adequate calls is not the point - I expect the professional aircrew to behave in a manner that mitigates risk and I expect their training department to train them in mitigating risk. Communicating position in a clear manner that is intelligible to all in the CTAF is a risk mitigator.
So you're happy for amatuers to be amatuers then hey???? Awful high pedestal you're standing on there, make sure you've got a firm footing, it's a looooong way down.
And finally, before you are super positively sure of what you heard, talk to the caretaker, pull the tapes or the CTAF, get a copy and have a really close listen to them, it's amazing what you miss when you're stressed, not being condescending, just have been in a similar situation (or so I thought).
BUT at the end of the day, it comes down to communication, if you're not happy with separation, GET ON THE RADIO. If you don't know where the RNAV is then GET ON THE RADIO. AND STAY ON THE RADIO UNTIL YOU GET A RESPONSE YOU ARE HAPPY WITH.
j3
I appreciate your view as a 'professional IFR driver'. As a fellow 'professional IFR driver (i prefer the term dirty ole motor plane driver in the soup)'. I accept your position, However I will KISS when asked (that sounds rather suspect) But I will not take it to the lowest common denominator every broadcast as my calls would have to be twice as long is respect to the speed ot the delivery and detail, if we are taking the first solo student
Flyer,
If we were aiming at the lowest common denominator then our calls would be twice as long (as mentioned above). A single pilot VFR single having a greater workload than IFR? Ummmmm NO. I have been in both positions (VFR + IFR) No way in the coldest part of hell does a VFR pilot have a greater workload than an IFR pilot, single or mulit crew (exception skydiving). That just simply does not happen, unless the VFR bloke is out in wx he/she should not be.
Tim Tam,
I am not asking you to carry the plates for every single airport between ballina and melbourne. I am asking you to download and study/print the plates for the airports you intend to stop at, assuming you aren't asking an IFR/RPT crew to clarify thier position.
Ok, assuming that your call went unheard. Why did you not repeat it? Running checklists or a call from centre could have been over the top of you. If you aren't going to continue to request clarification until you are answered, then that is as much your downfall as theirs. On occassions it has taken me up to 3 attempts to raise Sunstate/VB/RFDS aircraft. Did I stop at one or two and throw my hands up and want the organisations number? NO!!! I kept trying until I established contact with the crew.
Whether or not some (and only some) VFR drivers give less than adequate calls is not the point - I expect the professional aircrew to behave in a manner that mitigates risk and I expect their training department to train them in mitigating risk. Communicating position in a clear manner that is intelligible to all in the CTAF is a risk mitigator.
So you're happy for amatuers to be amatuers then hey???? Awful high pedestal you're standing on there, make sure you've got a firm footing, it's a looooong way down.
And finally, before you are super positively sure of what you heard, talk to the caretaker, pull the tapes or the CTAF, get a copy and have a really close listen to them, it's amazing what you miss when you're stressed, not being condescending, just have been in a similar situation (or so I thought).
BUT at the end of the day, it comes down to communication, if you're not happy with separation, GET ON THE RADIO. If you don't know where the RNAV is then GET ON THE RADIO. AND STAY ON THE RADIO UNTIL YOU GET A RESPONSE YOU ARE HAPPY WITH.
j3
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And who said the ADSB+Mode C idea as was proposed was a bad idea...........
If it flies it should have Mode C as a minimum. Especially if it flies anywhere near a CTAF R. No excuses!
Then the RPT folk can see you on TCAS if you happen to be a threat.
J
If it flies it should have Mode C as a minimum. Especially if it flies anywhere near a CTAF R. No excuses!
Then the RPT folk can see you on TCAS if you happen to be a threat.
J
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Look I work for said company and I will admitt some of the guys I work with have bad radio skills generally. But so do other parts of aviation.
If you don't understand a call, ask the question.
Merry Christmas
If you don't understand a call, ask the question.
Merry Christmas
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J3P
Read my posts carefully. I did not make the querying call and I was not stressed or distracted - I was on frequency, nearby but not in the way (124.2 covers Casino, Lismore, Ballina & Evans Head BTW). I admit I must only be an "amateur" with just over 1000 hours and a CIR maintained current "only" since 2001, but a set of DAPs is by my side when flying IFR - with the enroute plates already pulled and on my kneeboard....I do not expect other folks flying VFR X country to do the same, however.
You will be interested to know that ASA will not be updating DAPs online in the near future (or I believe making them available on line, so I also do not expect that VFR drivers to go and buy a set ....
Zed - the call may not be queried if the receiving individual does not realise that there may be a possible conflict if the initial call is incorrect. I also cannot accept that procedural matters such as these are not covered in check and training, either.
If I was a passenger on J* (and I am sometimes) I would be VERY concerned that communications OCTA and in CTAFs are not conducted routinely in a manner that reduces risk, no matter who may be listening (from other RPT to itinerant VFR RA-Aus). I would also be very concerned to find that this is not emphasised for ops OCTA. J* is not the only one concerned here, I'll admit, but the problem is unfortunately common enough for concern. That is the point of the thread.
Read my posts carefully. I did not make the querying call and I was not stressed or distracted - I was on frequency, nearby but not in the way (124.2 covers Casino, Lismore, Ballina & Evans Head BTW). I admit I must only be an "amateur" with just over 1000 hours and a CIR maintained current "only" since 2001, but a set of DAPs is by my side when flying IFR - with the enroute plates already pulled and on my kneeboard....I do not expect other folks flying VFR X country to do the same, however.
You will be interested to know that ASA will not be updating DAPs online in the near future (or I believe making them available on line, so I also do not expect that VFR drivers to go and buy a set ....
Zed - the call may not be queried if the receiving individual does not realise that there may be a possible conflict if the initial call is incorrect. I also cannot accept that procedural matters such as these are not covered in check and training, either.
If I was a passenger on J* (and I am sometimes) I would be VERY concerned that communications OCTA and in CTAFs are not conducted routinely in a manner that reduces risk, no matter who may be listening (from other RPT to itinerant VFR RA-Aus). I would also be very concerned to find that this is not emphasised for ops OCTA. J* is not the only one concerned here, I'll admit, but the problem is unfortunately common enough for concern. That is the point of the thread.
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Im sure there are experienced pilots that have less of a workload flying in extreme weather than a VFR pilot in Vmc
You were trying to make a joke, weren't you?
now now 'Jet_A' I can see where 'brns2' is coming from here. Could be that a VFR pilot is in a plane that he's not too experienced (we've all been there) on in a situation that to him/her appears to be very busy might feel as though that's as tough as an IFR driver in the soup making a genuine NBD App at night. Horses for courses. You can't compare IFR with VFR as far as the workload goes re weather etc (ulness the VFR driver has foud himself in the soup) but you can compare it re experience levels. Remember `ALL IFR pilots where once green as a blade of grass both VFR & IFR.
Balanced thoughts, we can all have 'em
Wmk2
Balanced thoughts, we can all have 'em
Wmk2
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When to Do an Instrument approach
If the weather was "severely clear" should RPT crews be conducting instrument approaches?
Have a look at CAR 166 (2)(d):
and CAR 166 (5)
Also refer to AIP ENR 1.1 64.2
The bolding is mine. The regs and AIP do explicilty allow the 5 mile final straight in procedure as well but the quotes were too large.
My question is do pilots have the discretion to carry out an RNAV GNSS approach at a non-towered aerodrome in VMC? One reading of the regs says no they do not.
I understand that this may be a case of inapropriate regulation but it would avoid the concerns of the originator of this thread.
NOtimTAMs, if it really is a concern to you submit a REPCON report
Have a look at CAR 166 (2)(d):
The pilot in command of an aircraft that is being operated in the vicinity of a non‑controlled aerodrome must:
......
unless subregulation (3) or (4) applies — when approaching the aerodrome to land, join the circuit pattern for the direction in which landing is to be undertaken on the upwind, crosswind or downwind leg;
......
unless subregulation (3) or (4) applies — when approaching the aerodrome to land, join the circuit pattern for the direction in which landing is to be undertaken on the upwind, crosswind or downwind leg;
Paragraphs (2) (d) and (3) (b), (c) and (d) do not apply if:
(a) the pilot is conducting an instrument approach in I.M.C.; and
(b) the instrument approach procedure positions the aircraft to join the circuit other than on the upwind, cross‑wind or down‑wind leg of the circuit pattern.
(a) the pilot is conducting an instrument approach in I.M.C.; and
(b) the instrument approach procedure positions the aircraft to join the circuit other than on the upwind, cross‑wind or down‑wind leg of the circuit pattern.
An aircraft approaching a non-towered aerodrome for a landing
should join the circuit in accordance with para 64.5 unless it is:
a. following an instrument approach procedure in IMC;
should join the circuit in accordance with para 64.5 unless it is:
a. following an instrument approach procedure in IMC;
My question is do pilots have the discretion to carry out an RNAV GNSS approach at a non-towered aerodrome in VMC? One reading of the regs says no they do not.
I understand that this may be a case of inapropriate regulation but it would avoid the concerns of the originator of this thread.
NOtimTAMs, if it really is a concern to you submit a REPCON report
I have been in both positions (VFR + IFR) No way in the coldest part of hell does a VFR pilot have a greater workload than an IFR pilot, single or mulit crew (exception skydiving)
You can't compare IFR with VFR as far as the workload goes re weather etc (ulness the VFR driver has foud himself in the soup)
The other 2% is made up of the days when it is socked in to the deck for hundreds of miles around and the rain is hitting the aeroplane so hard that you think its gonna knock you out of the sky; and the days when you are dodging thunderstorms. Radar and/or Stormscope would help with the latter but I have rarely had that luxury.
Fortunately icing is not a common issue in the north, but does cause me some angst if I head down Mexico way. Ice was par for the course when flying in NZ, although it seemed easier to get away from it over there.
Mostly I just TO and climb out like the man says, sit up there in the cruise changing frequency when instructed, let down vis the GPS arrival. Occassionally I fly a GPS RNAV or ILS for real, but have yet to "miss".
Certainly, flying into and out of Archerfield (YBAF) is way easier IFR than it is VFR, ya just gotta remember to not say the magic word "visual" until you have it all pretty well sussed! My first departure from YBAF for almost 20 years was into an 800' overcast in a C210. Program the GPS - punch on the AP - do as the man says - too easy!
Wally, the last NDB I have flown in anger was YKID (Kidston) in a C310 on 5 July 1989. I broke out right at the minima and flew VFR to Carpentaria Downs to collect my pax.
Listening to the jet peddlers in my part of the world, they don't sound to stressed either - although I am sure there are times when the pucker factor goes up - such as getting into Brisbane when the CBs are rolling in from the west.
Dr
PS: I regularly mix with, listen to, and observe RPT and the likes of the many "Foxtrot Deltas" going in to places like Longreach, Cloncurry, Mt Isa, Roma, Hervey Bay and Bundaberg. I gotta say that I think they do a very professional job of advising their position and intentions to the other traffic, and arranging separation where necessary.
Last edited by ForkTailedDrKiller; 26th Dec 2008 at 09:48.
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Firstly, all the best to you mob for 2009.
I started a thread on a similar subject months ago with Gladstone in mind. Since that thread you can see the difference with Rpt,Local and transiting traffic giving positions and altitudes. Not hard
The word must be widespread through Pprunne.As I stated previously, the transiting traffic and some locals are not familiar with the Rnav appr. As someone stated if pos/alt was given it would make it unnecessary for verification calls. Haven't we got more than enough calls now
What disappoints me in this thread is the "us" and them" inferences.
ForF8#ksake we are all Aviators and all started with our first flight be it yesterday or forty years ago.
Have a good and safe New Year yo'all
Frothy
I started a thread on a similar subject months ago with Gladstone in mind. Since that thread you can see the difference with Rpt,Local and transiting traffic giving positions and altitudes. Not hard
The word must be widespread through Pprunne.As I stated previously, the transiting traffic and some locals are not familiar with the Rnav appr. As someone stated if pos/alt was given it would make it unnecessary for verification calls. Haven't we got more than enough calls now
What disappoints me in this thread is the "us" and them" inferences.
ForF8#ksake we are all Aviators and all started with our first flight be it yesterday or forty years ago.
Have a good and safe New Year yo'all
Frothy
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Here's a thought - back to basics:
COMMON TRAFFIC advisory frequency calls:
An inadequate call should not be the starting point for an on-air debate or a trigger for a whole bunch of see and be seen aircraft to start doing some head-down in-flight research or review. Why not get it as good as possible at the first announcement. That first call is not a tick in the box; it is a prime opportunity to tell everyone interested what you are, where you are and where you are going. A pause for thought before 'transmit' may help.
COMMON TRAFFIC advisory frequency calls:
An inadequate call should not be the starting point for an on-air debate or a trigger for a whole bunch of see and be seen aircraft to start doing some head-down in-flight research or review. Why not get it as good as possible at the first announcement. That first call is not a tick in the box; it is a prime opportunity to tell everyone interested what you are, where you are and where you are going. A pause for thought before 'transmit' may help.
Occassionally I fly a GPS RNAV or ILS for real, but have yet to "miss".
If the J* crew stated that they were carrying out an RNAV approach for runway 06 surely all you have to do is look to the west for the big jet with its landing lights on? The CTAF procedures were developed by a consultant in DOTARS who had never flown anything bigger than a piston twin. The procedures are inadequate when it comes to RPT jets. If crews fly straight in via the RNAV approach then that is a predictable flight path that everyone can be aware of. As has been mentioned, if you are unsure of where the traffic is, speak up.
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Read the Original Education Material
Didn't anyone read the original education material that came out with the new CTAF calls . The education material asked all IFR pilots to give position information as beraing and distance with intentions. It also clearly stated that VFR pilots are not expected to be familiar with IFR procedures.
Mike Smith was the man responsible for the education material.
The professional pilots should be upholding the standards but sadly on many fronts they are not.
At the field where I instruct, the young IFR pilots seem to think it cool to let everyone know they are making an IFR approach by stating the type of approach they are conducting and nothing else.
Mike Smith was the man responsible for the education material.
The professional pilots should be upholding the standards but sadly on many fronts they are not.
At the field where I instruct, the young IFR pilots seem to think it cool to let everyone know they are making an IFR approach by stating the type of approach they are conducting and nothing else.
I have to say any jet crew that believe they are too busy to use quadrants in a radio call and then expand if necessary the detail of extra tracking such as DME arcs etc probably should NOT be up front.
It really is simple. rememeber some of these pilots of smaller aircraft possibly only have a few hours, maybe 1 or 2 solo. They will need consideration and will be hesitant about radio's.
Its utter garbage and I find it hard to imagine any one really believes that VFR pilots should be studying IFR charts.
Lets turn the tables, how many IFR guys do carry WAC charts or any topographical charts for all their destinations? I can tell you not many of the guys I fly with do.
I regularly drag my old WAC ouit going into Gove when the Airvan calls inbound, taxiing, departing for a place I cant pronounce let alone find on the map. That is equally as stupid as the IFR guy using weighpoints on a instrument approach.
The one thing every one seems to agree on is if wome dimwit pilot makes a call that is not clear then we should ask!
Another suggestion is to submit a report, CAIR or not. The individual pilot will most likely not even hear about it, its the system at fault and the system that needs changing. Enough reports and that MAY happen.
It really is simple. rememeber some of these pilots of smaller aircraft possibly only have a few hours, maybe 1 or 2 solo. They will need consideration and will be hesitant about radio's.
Its utter garbage and I find it hard to imagine any one really believes that VFR pilots should be studying IFR charts.
Lets turn the tables, how many IFR guys do carry WAC charts or any topographical charts for all their destinations? I can tell you not many of the guys I fly with do.
I regularly drag my old WAC ouit going into Gove when the Airvan calls inbound, taxiing, departing for a place I cant pronounce let alone find on the map. That is equally as stupid as the IFR guy using weighpoints on a instrument approach.
The one thing every one seems to agree on is if wome dimwit pilot makes a call that is not clear then we should ask!
Another suggestion is to submit a report, CAIR or not. The individual pilot will most likely not even hear about it, its the system at fault and the system that needs changing. Enough reports and that MAY happen.
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ANCIENT
Your right, and also page 127 of the VFG
CLIMB AND CRUISE PROCEDURES
Pilots of radio-equipped VFR aircraft must listen out on the appropriate VHF
frequency (CAR 243) and announce if in potential conflict. Pilots intercepting
broadcasts from aircraft in their vicinity which are considered to be in potential
conflict with their own aircraft must acknowledge by transmitting own callsign
and, as appropriate, aircraft type, position, actual level and intentions.
ARRIVAL INFORMATION
When approaching an aerodrome and in the vicinity, all radio-equipped aircraft
must broadcast on the CTAF:
• callsign and aircraft type;
• position (reported as distance with either the radial bearing, or quadrant
from the aerodrome);
• level; and
• intentions.
“Bundaberg Traffic, Zulu Foxtrot Romeo, Cessna 172, One Five miles West, Two
Thousand Five hundred, Inbound, Circuit area Bundaberg at time Zero Two”
A no brainer really, and it comes back to Wally 2's point on "Airmanship". What about we all sing from the one song sheet. It'll save a lot of angst as well as possible grief.
Frothy
Your right, and also page 127 of the VFG
CLIMB AND CRUISE PROCEDURES
Pilots of radio-equipped VFR aircraft must listen out on the appropriate VHF
frequency (CAR 243) and announce if in potential conflict. Pilots intercepting
broadcasts from aircraft in their vicinity which are considered to be in potential
conflict with their own aircraft must acknowledge by transmitting own callsign
and, as appropriate, aircraft type, position, actual level and intentions.
ARRIVAL INFORMATION
When approaching an aerodrome and in the vicinity, all radio-equipped aircraft
must broadcast on the CTAF:
• callsign and aircraft type;
• position (reported as distance with either the radial bearing, or quadrant
from the aerodrome);
• level; and
• intentions.
“Bundaberg Traffic, Zulu Foxtrot Romeo, Cessna 172, One Five miles West, Two
Thousand Five hundred, Inbound, Circuit area Bundaberg at time Zero Two”
A no brainer really, and it comes back to Wally 2's point on "Airmanship". What about we all sing from the one song sheet. It'll save a lot of angst as well as possible grief.
Frothy
FTDK, I don't think it's so much that being IFR is busier than VFR, rather that being two pilot into a busy CTAF at 250 knots can be busier than being single pilot into the same CTAF at 180 knots. I think it stems from a couple of things. One, the procedural way the crew work make it more difficult to put things on hold while radio calls are dealt with. Two, there can be a lot more chatter involved between the pilots when establishing their situational awareness. When I'm single pilot I can very quickly disregard or listen to radio calls as I see fit and I get my situational awareness from what I hear, I can also easily massage my cockpit approach sequence to fit into what's happening around me, I don't need to explain to someone else what I am doing and keep them in the loop, and I don't need to discuss things with them in case their situational picture differs from mine. Of course there are many benefits of multi-crew operations, e.g., if my situational picture is wrong and I'm single pilot I don't have someone else to put it right, but multi-crew can get a bit cumbersome in busy CTAF radio environments.
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so where does that airmanship thread fit in here? i remember a saying, Keep it simple/ Keep it safe. now considering the situation, VFR pilots in the area, likelyhood of them NOT knowing IFR waypoints? = Very High, refering back to the KISS principle, and a little mix of airmanship, then reporting position with a IFR waypoint is probably not a good idea, especially when in reality, it possible not 1 of the VFR pilots there knew where the IFR waypoint was...
or how about this saying, when in IMC, then talk IFR, when VMC, talk VFR. what do ya think?
or how about this saying, when in IMC, then talk IFR, when VMC, talk VFR. what do ya think?
Aviate navigate & communicate, funny how the spoken word is considered the last in the 3 major things to priorities. But when it comes to a busy time in a CTAF etc. I'm not so sure the above order shouldn't be reassessed.You don't all of a sudden loose control of the A/C (all things being equal), you don't all of a sudden loose yr way (nav wise) but you can all of a sudden become overwhelmed with what's happening around you in a busy CTAF App point just like the one we are talking about here.
So unless yr spiralling out of control the eyes & ears are yr best defence to stay alive at any GAAP.
The word "Busy" is explained as one EG..........'cluttered with detail to the point of being distracting'.........Both VFR & IFR can be 'busy', no contest there I believe.
Wmk2
So unless yr spiralling out of control the eyes & ears are yr best defence to stay alive at any GAAP.
The word "Busy" is explained as one EG..........'cluttered with detail to the point of being distracting'.........Both VFR & IFR can be 'busy', no contest there I believe.
Wmk2