Merged: Willy ATCO's get 4 weeks holiday, meanwhile CAGRO At Newcastle saves the day!
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mostlytossas...
You sure are brave saying that type of garbage from behind your psuedonym.
You never will know or understand the sacrifices that these individuals have made for your right to sit there and espouse stupidity.
Go and say that to a Darwin, Townsville, Baghdad, Solomon Is, Balad, East Timor, Somalia, etc. controller that has not only worked over xmas, but has done it thousands of miles away from home..goose.
While it maybe unfortunate that some controllers have to work over Christmas....hello what do you think essential services do on civy street each and every year.
You never will know or understand the sacrifices that these individuals have made for your right to sit there and espouse stupidity.
Go and say that to a Darwin, Townsville, Baghdad, Solomon Is, Balad, East Timor, Somalia, etc. controller that has not only worked over xmas, but has done it thousands of miles away from home..goose.
Geedo..Just what sacrifices have the ATC's made for me at Willy? To my knowledge they control aircraft at a "military airport" in coastal NSW which though is "technically" a military airport is really these days a joint user. Check out newcastle airports web site and see the dozens of RPT flights every week. I have nothing against the RAAF personel personally but if they want to keep it as a RAAF controlled airport then they have to be prepared to staff it. Either that or give it over to civil controllers to operate and move the RAAF base elsewhere as the Newcastle region is only going to get bigger and busier, you or me or anyone else is not going to change that fact.
As for those that say they will leave the RAAF as it is all too hard well do it then. But consider this, by this time next year unemployment is likely to be 10% and you would quiet likely be joining them without the military guarantee of full employment.
As for those that say they will leave the RAAF as it is all too hard well do it then. But consider this, by this time next year unemployment is likely to be 10% and you would quiet likely be joining them without the military guarantee of full employment.
CASA were given 12 Months notice by the RAAF that a service would not be provided this Christmas.
It is their fault that Military people had to be called in at the last moment.
Just because CASA is incompetent -does that mean passengers lives should be placed at extra risk?
I have made it very clear during all interviews that the problem was caused by CASA - not the military. Thats why I have thanked the military for correcting a safety problem that they did not create.
An airport that has over 1 million pax per year and 50 k movements with large jets should have an ATC service to cover the peak period in my view. If the ATC service at Tamworth or Camden is open at Christmas why not Newcastle?
Their are a number of airports in Australia that have CAGRO's that should have ATC. I will be doing something about this - just watch.
I do not blame the military controllers for the outdated procedures at Williamtown - I blame the leadership in Canberra that has not allowed modern procedures such as "target resolution" to be introduced.
The safety criteria for establishing risk must not be based in whether or not someone wants to work during the holiday period.
An AsA operated ATC tower could have been organised in the 12 month period- just as previously happened at the Bathurst races. Even if civil controllers were employed at market rates ( ie enough to get them to take the jobs) the cost per passenger would probably be less than $2 - well worth it to stay alive!
Why should airline passengers be forced to take extra risk because of the slackness of those in the CASA OAR to get a tower going in the 12 month period available?
It is their fault that Military people had to be called in at the last moment.
Just because CASA is incompetent -does that mean passengers lives should be placed at extra risk?
I have made it very clear during all interviews that the problem was caused by CASA - not the military. Thats why I have thanked the military for correcting a safety problem that they did not create.
An airport that has over 1 million pax per year and 50 k movements with large jets should have an ATC service to cover the peak period in my view. If the ATC service at Tamworth or Camden is open at Christmas why not Newcastle?
Their are a number of airports in Australia that have CAGRO's that should have ATC. I will be doing something about this - just watch.
I do not blame the military controllers for the outdated procedures at Williamtown - I blame the leadership in Canberra that has not allowed modern procedures such as "target resolution" to be introduced.
The safety criteria for establishing risk must not be based in whether or not someone wants to work during the holiday period.
An AsA operated ATC tower could have been organised in the 12 month period- just as previously happened at the Bathurst races. Even if civil controllers were employed at market rates ( ie enough to get them to take the jobs) the cost per passenger would probably be less than $2 - well worth it to stay alive!
Why should airline passengers be forced to take extra risk because of the slackness of those in the CASA OAR to get a tower going in the 12 month period available?
Dick,
.... then, equally, why should the RAAF Controllers be the bunnies who fix up the problems caused by CASA (according to you) ?
Why didn't CASA "force" ASA to provide staff?
Because they obviously calculated that a civilian CAGRO would be sufficient.
The question remains, why did the Minister override CASA's decision?
The answer ... EITHER... CASA got it wrong, therefore heads should roll ... OR .. for political expediency .... then why have CASA ... just let the Minister (or Dick) make all the decisions.
Either way ... its a monumental disgrace all round.
The only ones coming out of this unscathed are the RAAF.
.... then, equally, why should the RAAF Controllers be the bunnies who fix up the problems caused by CASA (according to you) ?
Why didn't CASA "force" ASA to provide staff?
Because they obviously calculated that a civilian CAGRO would be sufficient.
The question remains, why did the Minister override CASA's decision?
The answer ... EITHER... CASA got it wrong, therefore heads should roll ... OR .. for political expediency .... then why have CASA ... just let the Minister (or Dick) make all the decisions.
Either way ... its a monumental disgrace all round.
The only ones coming out of this unscathed are the RAAF.
CASA did get it wrong. Byron told me 12 months ago that he would not allow the airport to operate over the Christmas period without ATC. He told me and other members of the Aviation Task Force that the airlines had been informed of this decision.
This decision then required a competent person at CASA to make it clear to the airport operator that Airlines would not be allowed to operate into Williamtown in the peak Christmas period without ATC. This did not happen.
Its clear that the airport operator was told that CASA would water down the decision if everyone procrastinated until there was no time to organise a civilian ATC service. After all CASA was allowing Avalon to operate with 1.5million PAX per year without even a UNICOM- let alone a CAGRO or Class D.
This is exactly what happened.
Many Airline pilots have contacted me with thanks for what has happened. Of course these thanks should go to the Minister for intervening and to the ADF people who are manning the tower with the A/G service - not perfect but better than nothing!
The reason CASA did not "force" AsA to provide staff and ATC is obvious. CASA at the present time is a weak disfunctional organisation that never stands up to anyone powerful. Just look at what is happening with AsA and TIBA at the present time.
I agree that the RAAF is not to blame however they were the only ones who could save the day at the last moment I commend them for this.
This decision then required a competent person at CASA to make it clear to the airport operator that Airlines would not be allowed to operate into Williamtown in the peak Christmas period without ATC. This did not happen.
Its clear that the airport operator was told that CASA would water down the decision if everyone procrastinated until there was no time to organise a civilian ATC service. After all CASA was allowing Avalon to operate with 1.5million PAX per year without even a UNICOM- let alone a CAGRO or Class D.
This is exactly what happened.
Many Airline pilots have contacted me with thanks for what has happened. Of course these thanks should go to the Minister for intervening and to the ADF people who are manning the tower with the A/G service - not perfect but better than nothing!
The reason CASA did not "force" AsA to provide staff and ATC is obvious. CASA at the present time is a weak disfunctional organisation that never stands up to anyone powerful. Just look at what is happening with AsA and TIBA at the present time.
I agree that the RAAF is not to blame however they were the only ones who could save the day at the last moment I commend them for this.
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ASA could not provide the staff for Willy over Xmas.But they should. ASA cannot provide the staff for their own operations.
Civil controllers will be trying to keep airspace open over Xmas (we don't get stand down periods) and good luck to the RAAFies on a break I say.
ASA non-operational staff will be taking their Xmas break as usual. TFN will write his usual New Year message hoping that everyone had a good break and has come back well rested, because he doesn't understand that the techs, firies, Ausfic,ATC, etc are at work 24/7/ 365.
ASA have @3000 staff, 480 (@1 in 6) work in the Alan Woods Building in Canberra, they knock off over Xmas and funnily they are not missed. We had 360 in Canberra (the Aviation centre of the world) in 2002 and have reduced the number of controllers and increased the office staff. TFNs world finishes at his office door.
BTW the notams for Willy have them starting the zone at 2100 UTC (8am local), and they do a good job.
Civil controllers will be trying to keep airspace open over Xmas (we don't get stand down periods) and good luck to the RAAFies on a break I say.
ASA non-operational staff will be taking their Xmas break as usual. TFN will write his usual New Year message hoping that everyone had a good break and has come back well rested, because he doesn't understand that the techs, firies, Ausfic,ATC, etc are at work 24/7/ 365.
ASA have @3000 staff, 480 (@1 in 6) work in the Alan Woods Building in Canberra, they knock off over Xmas and funnily they are not missed. We had 360 in Canberra (the Aviation centre of the world) in 2002 and have reduced the number of controllers and increased the office staff. TFNs world finishes at his office door.
BTW the notams for Willy have them starting the zone at 2100 UTC (8am local), and they do a good job.
Last edited by max1; 12th Dec 2008 at 23:03.
Bugsmasherdriverandjediknite
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Why all the whohaa. get a couple of guys (and gals) of the religions that don't celebrate xmas and offer those lads (and ladesses) the work during that period.
no sacrifices being made then as its just another working day for them.
no sacrifices being made then as its just another working day for them.
AsA had 12 months notice to get controllers for Willy. They did nothing because they knew CASA OAR would always re write the safety case to say ATC was not required. A bit like the Wheat Board bureaucrats would re write the invoices to show no commission was being paid.
The reason there is such huge problems in AsA re staffing is that the AsA management know that CASA will take no action- they will even manipulate figures to hide the facts- again like the Wheat Board.
Why are they doing this ? Just as the Wheat Board people thought they were helping our farmers, the CASA people think they are helping the Airlines lower their costs. What other reason could there be?
Re the so called safety case, rather than CASA using the proven FAA establishment formula for class D towers, which we used for 10 years they have "invented" a new formula which is based on subjective opinions and has never been tested or validated. See the legal letter to CASA on the Newcastle thread on my dicksmithflyer website to get details on this.
This allows the Office of Airspace Regulation to manipulate the figures to appease those who don't want to pay for adequate ATC staff levels.
Peter Cromarty , the head of the OAR, hails from the UK CAA and he well knows that in the UK no jet airline is approved to operate without a local ATC tower. I wonder what pressure has been put on him from above that forces him to support the dangerous and risky approach he is taking?
Alan Joyce comes from Ireland, where the Irish CAA requires a tower for all Airline ops, yet he supports 1.5 million pax at Avalon with no Tower!
No doubt the Royal Commission after the inevitable airline accident will uncover all of this. Fortunately we will know who to hold accountable -including the people in the Department who have done nothing or even supported some of the 'non-action' that has taken place.
The reason there is such huge problems in AsA re staffing is that the AsA management know that CASA will take no action- they will even manipulate figures to hide the facts- again like the Wheat Board.
Why are they doing this ? Just as the Wheat Board people thought they were helping our farmers, the CASA people think they are helping the Airlines lower their costs. What other reason could there be?
Re the so called safety case, rather than CASA using the proven FAA establishment formula for class D towers, which we used for 10 years they have "invented" a new formula which is based on subjective opinions and has never been tested or validated. See the legal letter to CASA on the Newcastle thread on my dicksmithflyer website to get details on this.
This allows the Office of Airspace Regulation to manipulate the figures to appease those who don't want to pay for adequate ATC staff levels.
Peter Cromarty , the head of the OAR, hails from the UK CAA and he well knows that in the UK no jet airline is approved to operate without a local ATC tower. I wonder what pressure has been put on him from above that forces him to support the dangerous and risky approach he is taking?
Alan Joyce comes from Ireland, where the Irish CAA requires a tower for all Airline ops, yet he supports 1.5 million pax at Avalon with no Tower!
No doubt the Royal Commission after the inevitable airline accident will uncover all of this. Fortunately we will know who to hold accountable -including the people in the Department who have done nothing or even supported some of the 'non-action' that has taken place.
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50k movements!!!????
Dick - take note there are NOT 50,000 civil movements a year at Willy - 1m pax yes!
See the numbers quoted previously on the thread and stop giving fictitious data - also check your stats - Dec and Jan are a long way from peak periods at Willy....
See the numbers quoted previously on the thread and stop giving fictitious data - also check your stats - Dec and Jan are a long way from peak periods at Willy....
Thread Starter
Hi Dick,
Your Quote,
"Their are a number of airports in Australia that have CAGRO's that should have ATC. I will be doing something about this - just watch."
Care to elaborate on which ones??
Some of these I think have been 'hammered' to death in previous posts - mostly around the VERY expensive costs of the set-up e.g. Suitably rated staff, transfers costs, housing, the NUMBER of staff on duty at any one time vs the ONE now, etc etc not to mention the building of a 'suitable' tower and equipping same....
And all of this to be paid for by........
Ah Well!!
(I tell ya mate, the ole' AFIZ was the most efficient way to manage those places....CAGRO is 'next best thing'...IMHO)
Your Quote,
"Their are a number of airports in Australia that have CAGRO's that should have ATC. I will be doing something about this - just watch."
Care to elaborate on which ones??
Some of these I think have been 'hammered' to death in previous posts - mostly around the VERY expensive costs of the set-up e.g. Suitably rated staff, transfers costs, housing, the NUMBER of staff on duty at any one time vs the ONE now, etc etc not to mention the building of a 'suitable' tower and equipping same....
And all of this to be paid for by........
Ah Well!!
(I tell ya mate, the ole' AFIZ was the most efficient way to manage those places....CAGRO is 'next best thing'...IMHO)
Dick,
You sure do write some rubbish, and come up with some rubbish. But sheesh, this Willytown one is the of the biggest bits of rubbish I have ever seen.
Get over it!
If you want to do something good for aviation, stop trying to make Australia like the United States (I thought you were all for our products being Australian, why is Aviation so different?), and go and hassle Bankstown Airport or something like that.
morno
You sure do write some rubbish, and come up with some rubbish. But sheesh, this Willytown one is the of the biggest bits of rubbish I have ever seen.
Get over it!
If you want to do something good for aviation, stop trying to make Australia like the United States (I thought you were all for our products being Australian, why is Aviation so different?), and go and hassle Bankstown Airport or something like that.
morno
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Mostlytossas:
As for those that say they will leave the RAAF as it is all too hard well do it then. But consider this, by this time next year unemployment is likely to be 10% and you would quiet likely be joining them without the military guarantee of full employment.
As for those that say they will leave the RAAF as it is all too hard well do it then. But consider this, by this time next year unemployment is likely to be 10% and you would quiet likely be joining them without the military guarantee of full employment.
Sitting in a TWR at Baghdad for 12hrs straight, 42degrees in the shade and anyone with a bbgun taking potshots at them isn't too hard, but cancelling your leave to appease Dick Smith (of all people) is a bit of a kick in the balls / falcon punch.
Nothing like an armchair hero to tell the commissioned officers of our military that they're welcome to cease their underpaid commitment to National Service.
How about some respect?
What do you do on ANZAC day? Take a digger out for Teppanyaki??
Ruby, I did not say all the movements were civil.
The CASA Williamtown Aeronautical Study of Feb 2008 shows on page 11 that "total current movements"- table 4.2 are 51,991.
The study is on my web site.
Morno, Don't you want ATC at Williamtown? Why?
The CASA Williamtown Aeronautical Study of Feb 2008 shows on page 11 that "total current movements"- table 4.2 are 51,991.
The study is on my web site.
Morno, Don't you want ATC at Williamtown? Why?
Griffo, I can,t see why a NAS style class D tower would cost much more than a CAGRO.
They also provide a traffic info service between IFR and VFR- just like a CAGRO and the old AFIZ but also provide a runway separation service.
I would prefer a NAS class D service from a currently rated controller any day over an old retired FSO! Then again that's just my opinion.
They also provide a traffic info service between IFR and VFR- just like a CAGRO and the old AFIZ but also provide a runway separation service.
I would prefer a NAS class D service from a currently rated controller any day over an old retired FSO! Then again that's just my opinion.
Garudaude...I have every respect for the military being a Legacy kid from the 60's but that has nothing to do with Willy ATC. Incidentally my father and his 3 brothers all served in WW2 my dad in Nth Africa at El Alamien. All 4 of them were dead before they made 50yrs old. Due to the war? Who knows but odd isn't it as the youngest brother who was too young to enlist and the sister are still alive today in their 80's. As for me no I've never enlisted but could have in Vietnam as I was in the last call up raffle before Whitlam came to power and abolished it. And as for our troops in Iraq I want them home, not getting shot at to please politicians since gone thank god, based on a lie of WMD.
So what do you think Anzac day and rememberance day mean to me ********? Teppanyaki indeed!
So what do you think Anzac day and rememberance day mean to me ********? Teppanyaki indeed!
Dick,
You can be very frustrating sometimes ...
"...I can,t see why a NAS style class D tower would cost much more than a CAGRO.
..."
Shirley, you must be joking !
Let's just start at item 1: .... what do you think the salary differences are?
As for your patronising ...
" ...I would prefer a NAS class D service from a currently rated controller any day over an old retired FSO!..."
First ...If they were retired, they're wouldn't be employed as CAGROs
Second ... are they old? what are the current CAGRO's ages?
Third ... What are the average ages of current Regional Tower staff?
Fourth ... Aren't the CAGROS rated to perform their duties?
So, to summarise ... in your perfect terminal area utopia ...
I can see a re-write of the documents and some culling of more than a few old crusty Controllers coming up !
You can be very frustrating sometimes ...
"...I can,t see why a NAS style class D tower would cost much more than a CAGRO.
..."
Shirley, you must be joking !
Let's just start at item 1: .... what do you think the salary differences are?
As for your patronising ...
" ...I would prefer a NAS class D service from a currently rated controller any day over an old retired FSO!..."
First ...If they were retired, they're wouldn't be employed as CAGROs
Second ... are they old? what are the current CAGRO's ages?
Third ... What are the average ages of current Regional Tower staff?
Fourth ... Aren't the CAGROS rated to perform their duties?
So, to summarise ... in your perfect terminal area utopia ...
- You can't be retired ... fair enough
- You can't be an ex FSO ...
- You have to be "young" ... whatever that is
- You have to be a Controller ... fair enough, but who pays ... and how much?
I can see a re-write of the documents and some culling of more than a few old crusty Controllers coming up !
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in the UK no jet airline is approved to operate without a local ATC tower.
CTAF(R) certainly isn't safe enough either IMHO.
As far as Willy town goes, i hope the glorious defence minister will take time on Xmas and new years day to pay a visit to and perhaps cut some turkey for the defence people who have had their hard earned leave cancelled and will be working to support civilian OPS.
Dick,
Sure, I do want ATC at Williamtown. However, if they can survive on weekends without it, why can't they go without it for a couple of weeks over Christmas?
Your arguements are full of holes, and have no cold hard facts. So far everyone has been able to point out defects in your arguement.
The only reason you've won is because you've gone on that stupid Sunrise show, and the uneducated public have believed every word you've said. If the Minister for Defence didn't do anything, then everyone would be asking him why, all based on the incorrect facts that you've gone on about on National TV.
morno
Sure, I do want ATC at Williamtown. However, if they can survive on weekends without it, why can't they go without it for a couple of weeks over Christmas?
Your arguements are full of holes, and have no cold hard facts. So far everyone has been able to point out defects in your arguement.
The only reason you've won is because you've gone on that stupid Sunrise show, and the uneducated public have believed every word you've said. If the Minister for Defence didn't do anything, then everyone would be asking him why, all based on the incorrect facts that you've gone on about on National TV.
morno
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morno,
"Dick,
Sure, I do want ATC at Williamtown. However, if they can survive on weekends without it, why can't they go without it for a couple of weeks over Christmas"
You'll find due to an increase in traffic Willy zone HAS been opening over the weekends.(Check the Notams) The RPT traffic is really ramping up. You should check your facts.
"Dick,
Sure, I do want ATC at Williamtown. However, if they can survive on weekends without it, why can't they go without it for a couple of weeks over Christmas"
You'll find due to an increase in traffic Willy zone HAS been opening over the weekends.(Check the Notams) The RPT traffic is really ramping up. You should check your facts.