Merged: Willy ATCO's get 4 weeks holiday, meanwhile CAGRO At Newcastle saves the day!
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Okay, so what we've got so far is:
Newcastle's only RPT capable airfield is owned and manned by Defence Force Air Traffic Controllers. The ADF have provided a service to civilians that have allowed the daily movements of the airfield to reach 50+ RPT per weekday, plus whatever GA traffic can get clearance. This airfield is in fact a military fighter training school, not dual control, not partial lease, it is Australia's Miramar. At Christmas time the pilots go home on school holidays, as such the primary reason for controllers, ground crew, refuellers et al on the ADF paycheck no longer exists. They state that they will also be going home.
And suddenly a single GA pilot in the ear of the media launches a scare campaign stating that it's not safe for people to operate there who have no right to be there in the first place. It's like complaining about the lack of race marshalls and ambulances at Bathurst in the off race season to look after the hoons and tour buses.
It doesn't matter whether CASA say that it's safe to fly in there or not. It doesn't matter that RPT have suddenly found themselves in a situation where they've scheduled multiple flights per day and don't have anybody to talk to. It doesn't matter that an entire city suddenly finds that it's effectively cut off from the outside world.
It's not their airport!
The Royal Australian Air Force helps out and, instead of benefiting from it, they're suddenly penalised.
That's what I'm talking about, not some big government conspiracy that's supposedly been put in place by Sir Humphreys to actively endanger the lives of its citizens. True evil is not lurking in the heart of parliament house and it's ridiculously paranoid and childish to think otherwise. I can accept wilful negligence and ignorance, but Dick seems to be pushing active, murderous-hearted, moustache twirling evil and that's ridiculous.
The only thing that amazes me is that the Minister of Defence, when faced with the situation, caved in and recalled his staff instead of doing what I would have done and said "You know, you're right. It's not safe without controllers. We won't be a party to dangerous flight practices. For the entire period of the Christmas break Royal Australian Air Force base Williamtown is hereby an active restricted zone." One knee jerk reaction for another.
As for another airfield, if you don't want to build one, how about expanding and linking Maitland? Sure it still falls under military restricted airspace, but at least it's not in a down-to-ground section.
After post edit: Whoops. Okay obviously Willytown isn't owned by RAAF Controllers, unless the military has gotten way more socialist than I realised.
Newcastle's only RPT capable airfield is owned and manned by Defence Force Air Traffic Controllers. The ADF have provided a service to civilians that have allowed the daily movements of the airfield to reach 50+ RPT per weekday, plus whatever GA traffic can get clearance. This airfield is in fact a military fighter training school, not dual control, not partial lease, it is Australia's Miramar. At Christmas time the pilots go home on school holidays, as such the primary reason for controllers, ground crew, refuellers et al on the ADF paycheck no longer exists. They state that they will also be going home.
And suddenly a single GA pilot in the ear of the media launches a scare campaign stating that it's not safe for people to operate there who have no right to be there in the first place. It's like complaining about the lack of race marshalls and ambulances at Bathurst in the off race season to look after the hoons and tour buses.
It doesn't matter whether CASA say that it's safe to fly in there or not. It doesn't matter that RPT have suddenly found themselves in a situation where they've scheduled multiple flights per day and don't have anybody to talk to. It doesn't matter that an entire city suddenly finds that it's effectively cut off from the outside world.
It's not their airport!
The Royal Australian Air Force helps out and, instead of benefiting from it, they're suddenly penalised.
That's what I'm talking about, not some big government conspiracy that's supposedly been put in place by Sir Humphreys to actively endanger the lives of its citizens. True evil is not lurking in the heart of parliament house and it's ridiculously paranoid and childish to think otherwise. I can accept wilful negligence and ignorance, but Dick seems to be pushing active, murderous-hearted, moustache twirling evil and that's ridiculous.
The only thing that amazes me is that the Minister of Defence, when faced with the situation, caved in and recalled his staff instead of doing what I would have done and said "You know, you're right. It's not safe without controllers. We won't be a party to dangerous flight practices. For the entire period of the Christmas break Royal Australian Air Force base Williamtown is hereby an active restricted zone." One knee jerk reaction for another.
As for another airfield, if you don't want to build one, how about expanding and linking Maitland? Sure it still falls under military restricted airspace, but at least it's not in a down-to-ground section.
After post edit: Whoops. Okay obviously Willytown isn't owned by RAAF Controllers, unless the military has gotten way more socialist than I realised.
Last edited by ToA; 17th Dec 2008 at 10:29.
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lol, so now the venting (healthy debate) part is off my chest.
Agreed with several points in the preceding discussion.
1) Defence/government shouldn't foot the bill for an alternate aerodrome. the NIMBY syndrome impacts on defence time and again but surely in this instance the 'we were here first' argument has got to be seen as the winning one.
2) It would be interesting to find out whether or not ADF ever did get in touch with CASA, ASA or the airlines to let them know that there was likely to be an issue with Willytown when it went into close-down.
Out of curiosity, does anybody know what happened this time last year?
Agreed with several points in the preceding discussion.
1) Defence/government shouldn't foot the bill for an alternate aerodrome. the NIMBY syndrome impacts on defence time and again but surely in this instance the 'we were here first' argument has got to be seen as the winning one.
2) It would be interesting to find out whether or not ADF ever did get in touch with CASA, ASA or the airlines to let them know that there was likely to be an issue with Willytown when it went into close-down.
Out of curiosity, does anybody know what happened this time last year?
Green, Because Dec & Jan are the peak thunderstorm time at Willy from the official BOM figures and it stands to reason that the Christmas hols are the peak time for itinerant VFR flights through the area.
I have a property on the coast and the Christmas period is by far the busiest for overflying VFR aircraft.
Read the safety case- it even mentions the problem of IFR Airline aircraft with "do it yourself" holding when a big CB was over the aerodrome.
ToA, last year the RAAF provided controllers in the tower to provide an A/G service with the assistance of a radar display. They advised Byron over a year ago that they would provide no service this year. That's what the whole issue is about.
I have a property on the coast and the Christmas period is by far the busiest for overflying VFR aircraft.
Read the safety case- it even mentions the problem of IFR Airline aircraft with "do it yourself" holding when a big CB was over the aerodrome.
ToA, last year the RAAF provided controllers in the tower to provide an A/G service with the assistance of a radar display. They advised Byron over a year ago that they would provide no service this year. That's what the whole issue is about.
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Wait what?
So the entire attempt to endanger human lives at Newcastle, and wilfully ignore the concerned statements of a member of the public is because that member of the public is you Dick? They know that people's lives are in danger and they do nothing because you're the one telling them that?
Just so I can be sure, I want to ask this one simple question.
Do you genuinely believe that an entire government department, or even just it's spokespeople and internal decision makers, would consciously choose to risk the death of innocent people and all the pain, heartache and legal action that would follow just so they can say they pulled one over on you?
The reason CASA does not take any action in relation to my statements about fake safety cases is because they know that my comments are true.
Just so I can be sure, I want to ask this one simple question.
Do you genuinely believe that an entire government department, or even just it's spokespeople and internal decision makers, would consciously choose to risk the death of innocent people and all the pain, heartache and legal action that would follow just so they can say they pulled one over on you?
Perhaps the following analogy will put some perspective of what the problem is.
Lets say there is a 20 story building being constructed. The bottom 19 stories are all up to the outer glazing being completed so quite safe to work inside. The top floor is still open to the elements and then the scaffolders knock off for 4 weeks leave. No safety rails,kickboards,screens nothing. The project manager says "she'll be right carry on regardless" to all the other building trades. I'll tell you what would happen. Within the hour Safework SA (safety regulator in SA but each state has one) would be on site and close off all access to the 20th floor and order all work to cease untill such time safety rails etc are installed. Workers on the site would have to work on other floors or be on full pay in the smoko hut until work can be found for them. The builder would probably be fined. The unions would be in full agreement to what the safety regulator had done.
CASA is the aviation safety regulator yet did nothing when the controllers (scaffolders) left the site. Worse than that, they conspired with the builder (airlines/AsA) to keep the 20th floor (Willy) working.
The union (I assume the AFAP) sat idlely by without a whimper.
The reason they get away with it and no one gets prosecuted/fined is because CASA and AsA are both government instrumentalities and the crown cannot prosecute itself.
Lets say there is a 20 story building being constructed. The bottom 19 stories are all up to the outer glazing being completed so quite safe to work inside. The top floor is still open to the elements and then the scaffolders knock off for 4 weeks leave. No safety rails,kickboards,screens nothing. The project manager says "she'll be right carry on regardless" to all the other building trades. I'll tell you what would happen. Within the hour Safework SA (safety regulator in SA but each state has one) would be on site and close off all access to the 20th floor and order all work to cease untill such time safety rails etc are installed. Workers on the site would have to work on other floors or be on full pay in the smoko hut until work can be found for them. The builder would probably be fined. The unions would be in full agreement to what the safety regulator had done.
CASA is the aviation safety regulator yet did nothing when the controllers (scaffolders) left the site. Worse than that, they conspired with the builder (airlines/AsA) to keep the 20th floor (Willy) working.
The union (I assume the AFAP) sat idlely by without a whimper.
The reason they get away with it and no one gets prosecuted/fined is because CASA and AsA are both government instrumentalities and the crown cannot prosecute itself.
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Dick,
Thanks for the link. Had a read and yes the last page in the CASA report is a strange little graph and I don't know what process they used to determine it but I don't know if people have manipulated data to reach a pre-determined outcome. Maybe they did but I can't tell.
What was interesting was the comments from the CAGRS people (non RAAF) who evalutated the traffic over several weekends and found it to be less than traffic at other Cagrs locations around Oz. Also comments from RAAF ATC management stating, that with a loss of 5 staff from the 18 they had in Aug, that they couldn't provide the service without affecting other loactions, ie DAR AND TVL. This would also mean a flow on effect to the full service they could provide in the new year, ie less ATC in 2009. Also, whilst the airlines didn't like the proposal, they were willing to still operate out of Willy over x-mas.
Now don't get me wrong, I like what your trying to acheive and improve avaition safety but it feels like you are trying to bring down those at CASA and the current Willy serves your purpose.
Most of the problems mentioned with Willy, TIBA etc all have one common thing. A critical shortage of ATC within both AsA and Defence.
You could acheive so much more if you helped us out and highlighted this fact to the media and others. Target CASA with this issue if you want and ask them why they haven't had an issue with all the places operating RPT without ATC. Willy, BN & ML centre, YSSY, YMML, the list goes on.
Willy is like so many other places, that if they had the staff they would be there providing an ATC servcie, not some token bull**** thing. Sorry I don't like Cagrs, its a waste of an ATC. We dont mind working weekends etc, its our job but its needs people.
Plug the current gaps in ATC and then we can go on and improve other things within the system but we can't keep trying to get blood from a stone.
Thanks for the link. Had a read and yes the last page in the CASA report is a strange little graph and I don't know what process they used to determine it but I don't know if people have manipulated data to reach a pre-determined outcome. Maybe they did but I can't tell.
What was interesting was the comments from the CAGRS people (non RAAF) who evalutated the traffic over several weekends and found it to be less than traffic at other Cagrs locations around Oz. Also comments from RAAF ATC management stating, that with a loss of 5 staff from the 18 they had in Aug, that they couldn't provide the service without affecting other loactions, ie DAR AND TVL. This would also mean a flow on effect to the full service they could provide in the new year, ie less ATC in 2009. Also, whilst the airlines didn't like the proposal, they were willing to still operate out of Willy over x-mas.
Now don't get me wrong, I like what your trying to acheive and improve avaition safety but it feels like you are trying to bring down those at CASA and the current Willy serves your purpose.
Most of the problems mentioned with Willy, TIBA etc all have one common thing. A critical shortage of ATC within both AsA and Defence.
You could acheive so much more if you helped us out and highlighted this fact to the media and others. Target CASA with this issue if you want and ask them why they haven't had an issue with all the places operating RPT without ATC. Willy, BN & ML centre, YSSY, YMML, the list goes on.
Willy is like so many other places, that if they had the staff they would be there providing an ATC servcie, not some token bull**** thing. Sorry I don't like Cagrs, its a waste of an ATC. We dont mind working weekends etc, its our job but its needs people.
Plug the current gaps in ATC and then we can go on and improve other things within the system but we can't keep trying to get blood from a stone.
And C- Change you have been a little bit naughty. In post 98 you are an ex RAAFie and now with posts121&148 you still are.
That's ok I forgive you as you have made sense and been most helpful.
Have a good Christmas and your fellow controllers as best you can anyway.
That's ok I forgive you as you have made sense and been most helpful.
Have a good Christmas and your fellow controllers as best you can anyway.
Ozbusdriver, you state:
Oz, the problem is that there are no bridges. In the last year or so, those in CASA, Airservices and the Department who were involved in the decision making have allowed no discussion with me at all.
I would certainly like there to be a bridge, however if one side won’t allow one to be built, do you really suggest that the other side should remain silent and just accept what is dished out?
Even when I write nice letters to CASA or Airservices, the answers basically stonewall and don’t address any of the issues. I think the attitude is that if they do this for long enough, I will simply go away. Of course that won’t work. It just motivates me more to try to get the decision making out in the open using good rational and objective judgment, and based on historic experience from all around the world.
Dick, behind the scenes you are burning bridges again.
DO YOU EVER LEARN ANYTHING?
DO YOU EVER LEARN ANYTHING?
I would certainly like there to be a bridge, however if one side won’t allow one to be built, do you really suggest that the other side should remain silent and just accept what is dished out?
Even when I write nice letters to CASA or Airservices, the answers basically stonewall and don’t address any of the issues. I think the attitude is that if they do this for long enough, I will simply go away. Of course that won’t work. It just motivates me more to try to get the decision making out in the open using good rational and objective judgment, and based on historic experience from all around the world.
Oz, my friends at AOPA keep the bridges open and in return are treated like S##T.
Strange times at the moment. Martin Ferguson was very critical of Mr Byron however the new Minister is effusive with his praise of Mr Byron even though over $100m has been spent on the Regulatory Reform Programme with no measurable output.
Could it be that the Government wants no change?
Silly question!
Strange times at the moment. Martin Ferguson was very critical of Mr Byron however the new Minister is effusive with his praise of Mr Byron even though over $100m has been spent on the Regulatory Reform Programme with no measurable output.
Could it be that the Government wants no change?
Silly question!
Dick. You are wrong:
It is well, well in excess of $100 mill so far - and that is only what they admit to. I think the last figure I saw some time ago was over $150 mill so the current cost is probably around double your estimate. And you must admit, $200 million up in smoke would even make your eyes water! 
Twenty years in the making - if they ever sell the film rights to Australia's Regulatory Reform the resulting epoch will be bigger than Ben Hurr!!!
I just love this confidence building gem from the last CASA Director in Hansard on 14 February 2005, almost four years ago now:
I guess the Government is so ashamed of Australia's regulatory reform performance that they funded the PNG Government to adopt the New Zealand Regulations!
We'll see the caliber of the new CASA Director when we see what he can achieve in expediting Regulatory Reform.
Sorry for the thread drift!
"...even though over $100m has been spent on the Regulatory Reform Programme with no measurable output."
Twenty years in the making - if they ever sell the film rights to Australia's Regulatory Reform the resulting epoch will be bigger than Ben Hurr!!!
I just love this confidence building gem from the last CASA Director in Hansard on 14 February 2005, almost four years ago now:
Mr Byron—I anticipate we would start sending some of them from about the middle of this year. I do not see this delaying the overall program excessively. We have an action item to develop a plan to forward to the minister about when we plan to have them to the minister, and I assume that plan would be done in the next couple of months. I would be hopeful that it would not be long after early 2006 that most of the draft rules are delivered to the minister.
We'll see the caliber of the new CASA Director when we see what he can achieve in expediting Regulatory Reform.
Sorry for the thread drift!
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civi
MT,
I'm most definitely still an ex Raafie mate, I got out in 2005 and I'm 100% civilain these days but I still work for defence. Thread #89 and #99 will provide some answers.
I'm most definitely still an ex Raafie mate, I got out in 2005 and I'm 100% civilain these days but I still work for defence. Thread #89 and #99 will provide some answers.
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Originally Posted by ToA
The ADF have provided a service to civilians that have allowed the daily movements of the airfield to reach 50+ RPT per weekday, plus whatever GA traffic can get clearance. This airfield is in fact a military fighter training school, not dual control, not partial lease, it is Australia's Miramar. At Christmas time the pilots go home on school holidays, as such the primary reason for controllers, ground crew, refuellers et al on the ADF paycheck no longer exists. They state that they will also be going home.
I'm assuming that since you are implying that ATC knock off when the pilots don't fly that you believe YWLM ATC should man for all other ADF aircraft arrivals and departures? Always amusing "We must man for 1 x F/A-18 with POB 1" then "Sorry, we cannot man for 1 x <name type> POB 120". Given the cost of several assets that fly into YWLM is substantially more than the cost of 1 x F/A-18 can I assume you believe the value of 1 x F/A-18 pilot is more than 120 passengers? I'd really like to hear you take on that.
Care to comment on why you don't man for other ADF moves if your basis is serving the ADF? You only provide a service for the training aircraft based at Williamtown. If you want to claim you are there to serve the RAAF why don't you???
"Pass me a brew"
"8 ship at initial"
"o.k. clear initial and pitch, and clear to land"
phew! Another tough 8 aircraft moves!
Your statement that Defence "shouldn't foot the bill" is ridiculous. The "my my that's a different bucket of money" does nothing but (when implemented) increase the bureaucracy and increase the cost to the tax payer. How about this. Place ASA trained controllers in tower. Move the RAAF controllers to other bases - and provide the service through-out the year. You know you don't need a blue shirt to say "Clear to Land".
You are there to provide Air Traffic Services. You were not specially selected to provide Air Traffic to F/A-18 aircraft. What's next? Don't use an AP-3 for surveillance of approaching illegal immigrants because "that's a military aircraft designed for submarine hunting and they've knocked off for Christmas to enjoy school holidays" (like that would ever happen!). When you actually work in the operational Air Force (rather than as you put it the "training Air Force") you might enjoy finding a clue.
You are here to serve the Australian people. Telling civilian pilot's who want ATC at YWLM "Get bent, I'm only here to serve RAAF training" is neither constructive nor helpful.
Interesting: No NOTAM for KNKX (Miramar) advising of no Air Traffic over Christmas... and by the way, if you were trying to make some reference to Top Gun - you should have referred to NAS Fallon. Top Gun moved from Miramar in 1996 - it's now Marine Corp Air Station Miramar.
(do you think Williamtown has the same facilities as Fallon?)
Keep up the good work ToA! Your nation needs you! Been signed off to Ground Freq. solo yet?! P.S. Do you think the rest of the ADF aviation community outside of YWLM believe you provide a service? I personally think that it's not just Dick Smith who thinks your "service" stinks.
Last edited by ElPerro; 19th Dec 2008 at 15:50.
was all that about.
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ElPerro,
Go back and have a read of my posts #95, 98, 113. If you read them you might learn something about the base.
Then I suggest you go and visit the staff next year (all 13 of them) and actually have a look at what they do. You might be surprised to see how busy it actually is some days.
Once you've done that, come back on here and then you can express your opinion about how easy they have it ( I think you've been watching too much Top Gun ).
TO ADF AIRCRAFT AT AN RAAF BASE.
They are in Blue because they can be sent to war, unlike AsA controllers.
BTW all ADF acft are provided ATC if they arrive/depart during published hours but the FA18's are the priority at WLM. Thats no different to AMB, EDN, ESL, PEA, OAK, NWA, RIC, TDL.
TVL and DAR are joint user, thats the difference.
DICK,
You never replied to my post #147, I'd like to hear your thoughts on what I suggested.
Go back and have a read of my posts #95, 98, 113. If you read them you might learn something about the base.
Then I suggest you go and visit the staff next year (all 13 of them) and actually have a look at what they do. You might be surprised to see how busy it actually is some days.
Once you've done that, come back on here and then you can express your opinion about how easy they have it ( I think you've been watching too much Top Gun ).
You are there to provide Air Traffic Services
They are in Blue because they can be sent to war, unlike AsA controllers.
BTW all ADF acft are provided ATC if they arrive/depart during published hours but the FA18's are the priority at WLM. Thats no different to AMB, EDN, ESL, PEA, OAK, NWA, RIC, TDL.
TVL and DAR are joint user, thats the difference.
DICK,
You never replied to my post #147, I'd like to hear your thoughts on what I suggested.
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Why not have some civilians at Willy, they do at Nowra (there were moves to put some at Richmond?)
There are alot of controllers who would be more than happy to leave ASA live around Nelsons Bay, Tea Gardens, Hawks Nest (heaven) and go on contract at Willy and provide a service outside of Willies core hours. This would allow flexibilty for the RAAF, we could even become reservists.
Where do I sign.
P.S. Unfortunately these days people make safety cases say whatever they want them to say. They are like staff surveys and impact statements, i.e. box ticking exercises.
There are alot of controllers who would be more than happy to leave ASA live around Nelsons Bay, Tea Gardens, Hawks Nest (heaven) and go on contract at Willy and provide a service outside of Willies core hours. This would allow flexibilty for the RAAF, we could even become reservists.
Where do I sign.
P.S. Unfortunately these days people make safety cases say whatever they want them to say. They are like staff surveys and impact statements, i.e. box ticking exercises.
C Change, re post 147.
I don't believe we will be able to do much about the shortage of ATC's until CASA does it's job properly. The Willy issue gave me a chance to point this out to the media and the Minister.
If CASA keeps manipulating safety cases we will end up with an accident.
Imagine if because of the pilot shortage CASA did one of these fake safety cases and claimed that all RPT up to 30 PAX could operate safely with a single crew member!
We probably would get away with it for a number of years but is the risk worth it?
That's what they did with the Willy safety case.
The reason you cannot understand the strange little graph on the last page of the CASA Oct 08 Willy safety case is because it is a fabrication. Note how there is no information as to where the data came from.
The Department is paranoid about any controversy- they will put every pressure on CASA and AsA to keep any disagreement out of the media. They do this by appeasing everyone they can who they think may kick up a stink.
For example, imagine for a second if CASA had stuck to it's guns and maintained it's requirement that Willy was not going to operate with RPT and without ATC?
The decision could have been leaked to the media and that would have shown a dispute between CASA, AsA and the RAAF. That would never do to our "yes minister" department. Better to cover up the problem by getting CASA to re write the safety study to show that ATC was really not necessary (wink wink).
And thats clearly what happened!
I don't believe we will be able to do much about the shortage of ATC's until CASA does it's job properly. The Willy issue gave me a chance to point this out to the media and the Minister.
If CASA keeps manipulating safety cases we will end up with an accident.
Imagine if because of the pilot shortage CASA did one of these fake safety cases and claimed that all RPT up to 30 PAX could operate safely with a single crew member!
We probably would get away with it for a number of years but is the risk worth it?
That's what they did with the Willy safety case.
The reason you cannot understand the strange little graph on the last page of the CASA Oct 08 Willy safety case is because it is a fabrication. Note how there is no information as to where the data came from.
The Department is paranoid about any controversy- they will put every pressure on CASA and AsA to keep any disagreement out of the media. They do this by appeasing everyone they can who they think may kick up a stink.
For example, imagine for a second if CASA had stuck to it's guns and maintained it's requirement that Willy was not going to operate with RPT and without ATC?
The decision could have been leaked to the media and that would have shown a dispute between CASA, AsA and the RAAF. That would never do to our "yes minister" department. Better to cover up the problem by getting CASA to re write the safety study to show that ATC was really not necessary (wink wink).
And thats clearly what happened!
Last edited by Dick Smith; 20th Dec 2008 at 05:36.
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Dick
that is the most sensible post i have read of yours on this forum. You actually made sense and some valid points (extremely difficult for me tp say). Request you leave the conspiracy theories and anti-establishment rhetoric on the sidelines and stick to the facts like you last post.
that is the most sensible post i have read of yours on this forum. You actually made sense and some valid points (extremely difficult for me tp say). Request you leave the conspiracy theories and anti-establishment rhetoric on the sidelines and stick to the facts like you last post.