Advice for new ferry pilot

[Super G]

Hello All,

I am helping to ferry a Trilander from Greece to the South Pacific in January and have been tasked with organising all the admin, approvals, waivers etc etc for the flight.

The route will take us over or into Israel, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, UAE, Oman, India, Thailand, Malaysia, Indonesia and then through Oz to the SP.

Has anyone here flown a GA machine through any of these countries and can offer advice on how best to get everything achieved? Any other sundry advice or helpful tips on successful ferry flying will be gratefully received.

Also,tip on good reasonably priced hotels near to the airport in the following cities will be very well received : Haifa, Oman, Muscat, Hydrabad (Ahmedabad), Calcutta, Phuket, Langkawi, Kuala Lumpur, Joho Bahru, and Bali.

I draw on the massive amount of collective experience that exists here and would appreciate any information you could offer no matter how small. I have been trawling through all the civil aviation sites for all the information I can gather but some of them have no info whatsoever for proposed ferry flights and have not responded when I've sent them an email enquiry.

Cheers, G

[11percent]

Contact a Peter Tippett, from Tippett Associates. Great guy, world of experience in ferring aircraft.

[FRQ Charlie Bravo]

I was looking at doing a ferry flight a few months ago (until the Aus $ tanked making the aeroplane almost twice as expensive) and have came up with the following:

The US FAA maintains the International Flight Information Manual online. Bear in mind that it's written for FAA licence holders

Jeppesen can send you all the info (AIP type stuff including charts and plates) you need as a once off package (cheaper as there's no amendment service). I think that they're called trip packs or something similar.

Another good site (not updated very regularly) is Earthrounders.

Good luck and have fun,

FRQ CB

[the wizard of auz]

you need to source an agent to do the Indonesian part. you also need to do the paperwork well in advance. I tried to do it along the way the first time I ferried through Indonesia, and it was a nightmare. you will also need to carry unusually large amounts of UD$ for .......Administration fees...... that happen to pop up along the way. don't believe anyone when your there and dont part with a cent until your positive its a legitimate claim. I had them turning up at my accommodation demanding Security payment with official looking reciepts and invoices........I was just lucky I could read Indonesian. Dont believe them when they tell you avgas is available unless its your agent, and then visually check the fuel. I had a brand new drum of fuel given to me unopened and it contained 120Ltrs of water and 70 odd ltrs of petrol. If I hadnt checked it before I pumped it into the aircraft it could have been a long time draining it out again. MAF have bases around Indonesia and were very helpful on more than a few occasions... from selling me good fuel to bartering down the official fees to less than a third of what I managed to do. Beware... to them your just a Bule (literally "albino" but used as a derogatory term for whites) with money to be extorted, and they have little to no conscience regarding you flying off with tanks full of water. I have some contact details for a good, reliable agent if required.
be prepared for things to happen at a glacial rate with regards to clearances from official sources...... the agent can hurry this up for a fee. carry photo copies of every document you will need, as every one from the security man at the gate to the fuel man will want a copy..... it looks official. make sure you carry as much official paper work with lots of stamps and many official looking signatures...baffle them with bull**** theory will need to be applied sometimes. Wear your uniform whilst flying in Indonesia. It will get you through some of the bureaucratic bull**** that plain clothes wont....Honestly. learn the phrases "saya tidak mau" (literally I don't want) and "Jangan menipu/tipu saya" (dont rip me off) It will cost you a ton of $$$ if your not very careful.
PM if you need any further info regards to Indonesia, PNG, Timor or the Philippines.
P.S.The Jeps trip packs are worth every cent. maps are not generally available for Indonesia.

[Super G]

Yep, sorry about that. Not Oman, meant to say Doha in Qatar. Thanks for all your replies so far.

[Tmbstory]

Super G:

I am sure you will get lots of information, to organize a trip you need some time and some knowledge of what to do.

From your suggested route you have joined Israel and Islamic countries, you would need to check this out with the relevant Authorities.
I n the past I was advised that this would not be suitable and so I used other routes.

Let me know if you need help

Tmb

[Brian Abraham]

Under no circumstances go into Israel. Muslim countries wouldn't accept your flight plan when you come to exit Israel.

[tnuc]

If you are doing the job yourself as a money saving excercise forget it, The best advice for you to get the job done properly and to be the most cost effective is that you should hire a profesional ferry company that has flown the route before and makes their living doing this type of work.
On top of the logistics you need to be thinking of all the equipment needed for this type of flight, ferry fuel system, hf radio, satilite comunications, safety and survival equipment (for over water and desert)
all of your permits and clearances should be aranged by a specialist, and keep on top of the schedule, clearances are only valid for a certian number of days and sometimes take several days or weeks to obtain.
Do not go through Israel at all, you will not get any further on your flight.
For an avgas powered aircraft routing will be limited to where avgas can be sourced, try to avoid india - expensive and lots of PAPERWORK
would suggest greece - Luxor Egypt, Bahrain, Muscat Oman, Columbo sri-lanka, medan, jakarta, bali, darwin, etc etc etc

[TWOTBAGS]

Well this is partly in my neck of the woods, out of Greece you have two choices, over water to Egypt or over the top, it depends upon your range.

Cross water would be Greece to Alexandria, Alex to Hurghada, Hurghada to Jeddah, Jeddah – Riyadh – Bahrain, Bahrain - Muscat .

Over the top would be Greece to Antalya, Antalya to Amman, Amman to Sharm el Sheikh, Sharm to Jeddah and as above.

These places are used to non scheduled international traffic and customs clearances, I believe you could get avgas at all mentioned.

Avoid Cyprus & Israel at all costs as besides the political/religious angle the place can be expensive.

Investing in Jeppesen to do the planning and send you an enroute kit is more than money well spent.

Don’t think you can cheap it through, spend a little money here and there on handling and your life will be so much easier and you can concentrate on the flying and see part of the world you will not regret…… mind you doing it in a overgrown bongo with 3 chainsaws is an experience all of its own.

[BRS_flyer]

Under no circumstances go into Israel. Muslim countries wouldn't accept your flight plan when you come to exit Israel.

Just what I was thinking. On top of any flight plan issues remember that if you have an Israeli stamp in you passport you won't be accepted into most ME countries (exceptions being Jordan and Egypt). UAE can be a bit more receptive but you can forget entry to Saudi, Oman or Qatar if you have made a stop in Israel first.

Best of luck

[DBTW]

Overflight flight clearance Home. Take a look at the website. There are plenty of companies that provide clearances and this kind of service. The charges are reasonable.

You will need an agent at most ports and they will have variable prices. Try to negotiate them down. Have a go though. I know who you are with and you will enjoy the adventure.

Your biggest problem will be finding Avgas in the Middle East. An enroute supplement will give you the detail, choose your stops carefully.

[flying-spike]

Indonesia

Ditto to all posts so far. When you take your U.S. dollars, take plenty and make sure they are unmarked and that they don't see all you have.It's remarkable how the fees go up when they see you have more. Coming out of Kupang once I was held on the ground for 30 minutes after being given a taxi clearance just because I refused to pay an extra $200 for a trumped up fee

[Ideal Line]

In terms of routes, take a look at the thread regarding the Catalina flying from Portugal to Sydney. Follow that route and hopefully you won't go wrong.

[Torres]

Read TWOTBAGS comments carefully. I think his advice is on the money!

Don't waste your time trying to get all those approvals. It could take you weeks, if not months. Do you have any idea of the bureaucratic rubbish and delays you will experience in India? Avoid India like the plague - use Sri Lanka if you have the range.

Contact Jeppesen and you will get the clearances and fuel availability in a few days. And their fees are less than the baksheesh you will pay along the way if you organise the clearances yourself.

A Trislander from Greece to the South Pacific......??? God bless you my boy, for I am sure you have sinned in life to pay that penance - or are a masochist with suicidal tendencies!!

May I never, ever, cast my eyes upon one of those abortions again!

You will need cut lunches for at least four to six months - and don't forget your ear plugs!

[Super G]

Great stuff guys! Thanks very much for all the good info and tips.

Two points have become very obvious to me:

1. Don't fly through Israel

2. Get an expert to handle the permits and ground handling.

Now all I have to do is convince the owner to part with the moolah to get this done properly. Thankfully he will be on the aircraft so will have a vested interest in having a trouble free flight. (I hope!!)

Torres: you mentioned your reluctance to go near a Trilander again. This will be my first time in one although I do fly the Islander regularly. Would love to hear specifics of the ins and outs of flying the Tri if you have time.

Cheers,

G

[Mach E Avelli]

By far the easiest way to ferry any aeroplane is to contract the whole job to Southern Cross in Camarillo California. It will probably be no more expensive than trying to do it yourself and because they know where to get the cheap fuel etc, it may even end up costing less, even with their fees. They are experts in dealing with all the bribery and corruption that is involved in anything going through Middle East, India etc. Doing it yourself may seem an adventure, but the crap involved with handling, clearances etc can have it turn to worms very quickly. The flying is the easiest part of any ferry, so if you want to do the flying, put it in the contract to go along with them as what in the trade is referred to as 'meat in the seat'

[Torres]

Torres: you mentioned your reluctance to go near a Trilander again. This will be my first time in one although I do fly the Islander regularly. Would love to hear specifics of the ins and outs of flying the Tri if you have time.

• Islander is to Trislander, as Leyland P76 is to a Russian truck. You wouldn't really want to drive either!
• If you lose the center engine at gross weight start praying. Despite your best efforts, the other two will only take you to the disaster scene.
• Don't forget the rear Pogo Stick. Every time the pilots disembark before the rear passengers, the repairs cost $8,000 plus.
• You are about to make some guy in Greece a very happy man!
• The Islander may be a STOL aircraft - but the Trislander certainly isn't!

I hope it is not one of the ex PNG Trislanders coming back........

Enjoy!

P.S. There used to be about 12 new Trislander airframes some where in Australia. They were intended for re-fitting with twin V8 engines.

[tnuc]

There are several australian based ferry companies, all very profesional and well able to do the job I would try contacting one of them before i went to the US .
www.jimhazelton.com
www.clahen.com.au
www.australianairferry.com
David Friend