B76 Duchess spin testing
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Aerohooligan..
To clear up this thread, just tell us you are not planning to do spinning in a BE76
Save it for an aircraft with 'A' in the engine code. That way you can do it inverted
To clear up this thread, just tell us you are not planning to do spinning in a BE76
Save it for an aircraft with 'A' in the engine code. That way you can do it inverted
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Definitely not planning to spin the Duchie. I intimated as much to Sunfish in a PM. I did the Vmca flight today and as it turns out when done properly Vmca is a hoot and I needn't have been nervous at all.
I like to muck about in aeroplanes (only within the limits of my licence) a bit, but never, ever in an illegal or unsafe manner. That's just asking for trouble.
I like to muck about in aeroplanes (only within the limits of my licence) a bit, but never, ever in an illegal or unsafe manner. That's just asking for trouble.
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Sunfish et al,
Interacting with the world in this way is how kids learn. You have to ensure that you catch the really dangerous stuff, is all.
In the case of our guy here enquiring about the spin characteristics of a Duchess, I am sure that he isn't planning on actually doing it, he's just interested, as reasonable, intelligent adults tend to be. Stomping on his head is pointless.
Besides, the information is useful. Consider for a minute some unfortunate who does happen to mishandle his Duchess to the point where it bites back and he ends up in a spin. He may well assume that the situation he is now in is quite hopeless, and not attempt any meaningful recovery. But if he knew that a recovery HAD been demonstrated, he may try a little harder and live to tell the tale.
I tell you that story, because back in the day when I was instructing, we saw a guy in the training area stall an Apache in a rather clumsy way while practicing asymmetric manouevers, which ended up in a spin. Another instructor quickly yelled instructions over the common frequency and the guy managed to recover. He told us later in the bar that, as soon as the spin started, he just assumed he had no chance and was mentally preparing for his end.
Just because information isn't written in the POH/FM, doesn't mean it isn't useful or correct. Most POHs of the Duchess era were written under the cloud of product liability litigation and were deeply conservative.
I developed a certain level of cynicism about research of this kind by children, because it almost always led to:
"Dad, did you know you can (insert verb) to a (insert noun) and (insert outcome)?"
"Dad, did you know you can (insert verb) to a (insert noun) and (insert outcome)?"
In the case of our guy here enquiring about the spin characteristics of a Duchess, I am sure that he isn't planning on actually doing it, he's just interested, as reasonable, intelligent adults tend to be. Stomping on his head is pointless.
Besides, the information is useful. Consider for a minute some unfortunate who does happen to mishandle his Duchess to the point where it bites back and he ends up in a spin. He may well assume that the situation he is now in is quite hopeless, and not attempt any meaningful recovery. But if he knew that a recovery HAD been demonstrated, he may try a little harder and live to tell the tale.
I tell you that story, because back in the day when I was instructing, we saw a guy in the training area stall an Apache in a rather clumsy way while practicing asymmetric manouevers, which ended up in a spin. Another instructor quickly yelled instructions over the common frequency and the guy managed to recover. He told us later in the bar that, as soon as the spin started, he just assumed he had no chance and was mentally preparing for his end.
Just because information isn't written in the POH/FM, doesn't mean it isn't useful or correct. Most POHs of the Duchess era were written under the cloud of product liability litigation and were deeply conservative.
It is not for the pilot to second-guess the manufacturer. If the flight manual says not to do something in this aircraft, then do not do that in that aircraft. Even if you think the reason behind a particular statement or limitation is based on the "cloud of litigation" rather than safety, you may or may not be correct, but that still does not make it OK to ignore the flight manual.
The phrase "My instructor told me..." is at the heart of so many misunderstandings, errors, mistakes and incorrect interpretations in aviation. If what your instructor says conflicts with something in the flight manual, AIP, CAO, CAR, or any authoritive source, your instructor is wrong. People make mistakes, sometimes through the rules changing over time, sometimes through different procedures in different parts of the world, and sometimes through being told the wrong thing. Just because someone is an instructor, or a chief pilot, or has more hours than you, does not make them infallible. I've had a chief pilot tell me some doozies, including that it was perfectly OK to fly an aircraft up to five hours past the expiry of the maintenance release, but that does not make him right.
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Nobody is suggesting that anyone should deliberately fly outside the POH or FM.
However, the smart pilot will understand that these documents can be (and often are) influenced as much by politics as by actual safety considerations. That doesn't mean that you should consciously contravene the contents of those documents, but it does mean should understand what the limitations of your aircraft actually are.
There are many examples of this, from how you lean an engine to how much notice you take of a "demonstrated" crosswind figure (which is not, of itself, a limitation).
Perhaps in the perfect world that some of you seem to inhabit, exceeding a limit or disregarding the POH is never an issue. However, in my many years of airline flying, there have been a few times when there has been no option but to do so - for a variety of reasons. Funnily enough, we all survived to tell the tale. There was always a lot of paperwork, though - but in every case, the authorities and airline had no issues with the decision-making process that led to the limit/rule/procedure being disobeyed.
It helps when you understand that most limitations are based on probabilities. An engine does not automatically fail as soon as it reaches it's TBO, in fact many engines could go 50% past their TBO with no problems whatsoever (hence "on condition" maintenance procedures). Many airframes can easily survive beyond their published Vne, it's just that the manufacturer won't guarantee it, and so on. Safe flying is based on the reduction of risk, which is why these safety factors exist. Some limitations are so conservative as to be laughable.
BTW your Chief Pilot may well have been correct if he was talking about flying on a waiver. Going 5 hours past the expiry of your MR usually just requires an approval from whatever authority oversees you. Extensions like that are common in the airline world - well they are in Europe, anyway.
However, the smart pilot will understand that these documents can be (and often are) influenced as much by politics as by actual safety considerations. That doesn't mean that you should consciously contravene the contents of those documents, but it does mean should understand what the limitations of your aircraft actually are.
There are many examples of this, from how you lean an engine to how much notice you take of a "demonstrated" crosswind figure (which is not, of itself, a limitation).
Perhaps in the perfect world that some of you seem to inhabit, exceeding a limit or disregarding the POH is never an issue. However, in my many years of airline flying, there have been a few times when there has been no option but to do so - for a variety of reasons. Funnily enough, we all survived to tell the tale. There was always a lot of paperwork, though - but in every case, the authorities and airline had no issues with the decision-making process that led to the limit/rule/procedure being disobeyed.
It helps when you understand that most limitations are based on probabilities. An engine does not automatically fail as soon as it reaches it's TBO, in fact many engines could go 50% past their TBO with no problems whatsoever (hence "on condition" maintenance procedures). Many airframes can easily survive beyond their published Vne, it's just that the manufacturer won't guarantee it, and so on. Safe flying is based on the reduction of risk, which is why these safety factors exist. Some limitations are so conservative as to be laughable.
BTW your Chief Pilot may well have been correct if he was talking about flying on a waiver. Going 5 hours past the expiry of your MR usually just requires an approval from whatever authority oversees you. Extensions like that are common in the airline world - well they are in Europe, anyway.
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Don't know about the Dcuhess but a friend of mine was in a B55 doing initial ME training and at about 6000 ft agl they were doing simulated Asymmetric handling and the student was struggling to identify the correct engine that was inoperative.
He was like trying this and that trying to sort it out. He used to use the old trick to put his toe underneat the rudder pedal to prevent the student from stepping on the wrong pedal?
And the next moment they had a real failure on the one engine and because he wa snot expecting it and the student stepped on the wrong rudder . . . .
The one engine at approx 65% and the aircraft was inverted and in a flat spin - the throttles were both retarded - slight bank and rudder inputs - without luck - then tried all the other tricks in the book - after loosing approx 2000 ft they were not inverted anymore. The spin was not that violent anymore but would not end - so he realized instantly would not get out - had to try and restart the dead engine - told the student to try changing tanks and then turn the starter - Through divine intervention the engine started and the instructor was able to nurse the aircraft out of the spin by using differential thrust at an altitude of approx 500 to 700 ft agl.
Subsequently they discovered dirt in the fuel line on the main tank of the engine that failed.
VG300
He was like trying this and that trying to sort it out. He used to use the old trick to put his toe underneat the rudder pedal to prevent the student from stepping on the wrong pedal?
And the next moment they had a real failure on the one engine and because he wa snot expecting it and the student stepped on the wrong rudder . . . .
The one engine at approx 65% and the aircraft was inverted and in a flat spin - the throttles were both retarded - slight bank and rudder inputs - without luck - then tried all the other tricks in the book - after loosing approx 2000 ft they were not inverted anymore. The spin was not that violent anymore but would not end - so he realized instantly would not get out - had to try and restart the dead engine - told the student to try changing tanks and then turn the starter - Through divine intervention the engine started and the instructor was able to nurse the aircraft out of the spin by using differential thrust at an altitude of approx 500 to 700 ft agl.
Subsequently they discovered dirt in the fuel line on the main tank of the engine that failed.
VG300
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The spin was not that violent anymore but would not end
(a) best to spin trainers which are approved for spinning rather than play test pilot without having done the training ..
(b) this is why the FT world uses spin chutes ... a second string to the bow, as it were.
(a) best to spin trainers which are approved for spinning rather than play test pilot without having done the training ..
(b) this is why the FT world uses spin chutes ... a second string to the bow, as it were.
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