B76 Duchess spin testing
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Somewhere that looks a lot better when I close my eyes
Age: 37
Posts: 92
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
B76 Duchess spin testing
I was told today by a META instructor that the Duchess is one of the only light twins ever to have undergone asymmetric stall/spin testing. The Duchess POH I did the engineering exam on, however, said something similar to what a lot of other twins' POHs say: 'This aircraft is not approved for spins and no spin testing was conducted during certification. What follows is based on Beech's best judgement.'
Can someone enlighten me? I know the quoted passage relates to symmetrical thrust spins but it sort of stands to reason that if normal spins weren't investigated then asymmetric ones definitely wouldn't be, right? Maybe it was only investigated after a certain serial number? Anyway, any info would be very much appreciated.
Can someone enlighten me? I know the quoted passage relates to symmetrical thrust spins but it sort of stands to reason that if normal spins weren't investigated then asymmetric ones definitely wouldn't be, right? Maybe it was only investigated after a certain serial number? Anyway, any info would be very much appreciated.
This aircraft is not approved for spins and no spin testing was conducted during cert
I think the general intent of this statement is to dissuade you from becoming an inadvertent test pilot......
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: in the classroom of life
Age: 55
Posts: 6,864
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
It worries me when a post about spinnig a Duchie is posted by someone named aerohooligan..... 
and aged 21.....
I guess the ATSB should start packing now..........
J
and aged 21.....I guess the ATSB should start packing now..........
J
Moderator
'This aircraft is not approved for spins and no spin testing was conducted during certification. What follows is based on Beech's best judgment.'
I think we need some clarification - exactly which part of the above sentence do you not understand?
I would be very careful about what you thought you heard or what you may have misinterpreted.
There are not to many Duchys around and even fewer schools doing MET in them. Brisvegas 'aint a hard place to narrow it down to which instructor you could be pointing the bone at.
EDIT:
After a bit of digging around i found this:
Can't say i would be too keen to find out regardless!
There are not to many Duchys around and even fewer schools doing MET in them. Brisvegas 'aint a hard place to narrow it down to which instructor you could be pointing the bone at.
EDIT:
After a bit of digging around i found this:
the Beech has a big elevator and rudder, giving it better
control. Beech actually did a full spin test series in the
Duchess but decided for marketing reason, not to certify it
for intentional spinning. It will recover from a spin on
one engine, not many twins can say that.
control. Beech actually did a full spin test series in the
Duchess but decided for marketing reason, not to certify it
for intentional spinning. It will recover from a spin on
one engine, not many twins can say that.
Last edited by The Green Goblin; 1st Dec 2008 at 09:22.
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Oxfordshire
Posts: 131
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
WOW,
When I read aeroholigans post all I saw was. An instructor has told me this and the POH says that. Does anyone know if the duchess was spin tested?
I didn't see him saying the instructor said you could.
I didn't see him saying he would.
I didn't see him recommending anyone else to.
He didn't say he didn't understand the POH.
All he said was the POH says it wasn't spun, an instructor says it was, anyone know if it was ?
Come on guys just answer the question asked............................
Well done with the answer Green Goblin, I don't think the guy was pointing anything at anyone and it looks like his instructor was correct after all.
When I read aeroholigans post all I saw was. An instructor has told me this and the POH says that. Does anyone know if the duchess was spin tested?
I didn't see him saying the instructor said you could.
I didn't see him saying he would.
I didn't see him recommending anyone else to.
He didn't say he didn't understand the POH.
All he said was the POH says it wasn't spun, an instructor says it was, anyone know if it was ?
Come on guys just answer the question asked............................
Well done with the answer Green Goblin, I don't think the guy was pointing anything at anyone and it looks like his instructor was correct after all.
The certification standard of the day didn't require it, so most didn't. I believe the Baron has been spin tested retrospectively and found to have generally good manners.
Is it possible it was spun, but not to the standard required for certification and hence publication in the flight manual. i.e. didnt conform to the requirements for a spin test
Fred, I recall hearing "if you spin a baron you'll die in it". Hmmm...
Fred, I recall hearing "if you spin a baron you'll die in it". Hmmm...
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Australia
Age: 57
Posts: 97
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"I recall hearing "if you spin a baron you'll die in it""
I believe the early model 55 Barons ( A, B models) were unrecoverable in a spin. I have heard this and i have heard that the later models (C,D,E) were recoverable because they had a bigger tail/rudder.
300
I believe the early model 55 Barons ( A, B models) were unrecoverable in a spin. I have heard this and i have heard that the later models (C,D,E) were recoverable because they had a bigger tail/rudder.
300
A further update, Raytheon performed 229 spins in the Baron in the late 1990s'. This validated the recovery technique in the POH and confirmed "no undue tendency to spin from a wings level unaccelerated stall" (the required standard of the day) The communique is condensed but essentially where spins were initiated with one powerplant at flight idle and the other wide open, and they were left that way for at least 270 degrees of rotation, an unrecoverable spin could develop.
I cant find much more detail but it looks like 2 out of the first 95 spins performed needed the spin chute to recover so you guys were right, not good handling at all (albeit while being grossly mishandled).
Bottom line is it's never a good idea to step outside the POH.
PS I think the guy who did this testing could stake a valid claim in that Dream Job thread elsewhere!
I cant find much more detail but it looks like 2 out of the first 95 spins performed needed the spin chute to recover so you guys were right, not good handling at all (albeit while being grossly mishandled).
Bottom line is it's never a good idea to step outside the POH.
PS I think the guy who did this testing could stake a valid claim in that Dream Job thread elsewhere!
Last edited by Fred Gassit; 1st Dec 2008 at 12:36.
Karl:
The reason people are reacting negatively to this idle question about the spin capabilities of a Duchess is that it indicates an unhealthy attitude to the manufacturers instructions.
Two personal experiences started out in a similar manner:
"Did you know you can stub out a lighted cigarette in a can of petrol and nothing will happen?"
"Did you know that a hand grenade is great for fishing?"
Save questions like that for "Mythbusters", Hooligan.
Does anyone know if the duchess was spin tested?
I didn't see him saying the instructor said you could.
I didn't see him saying he would.
I didn't see him recommending anyone else to.
He didn't say he didn't understand the POH.
I didn't see him saying the instructor said you could.
I didn't see him saying he would.
I didn't see him recommending anyone else to.
He didn't say he didn't understand the POH.
The reason people are reacting negatively to this idle question about the spin capabilities of a Duchess is that it indicates an unhealthy attitude to the manufacturers instructions.
Two personal experiences started out in a similar manner:
"Did you know you can stub out a lighted cigarette in a can of petrol and nothing will happen?"
"Did you know that a hand grenade is great for fishing?"
Save questions like that for "Mythbusters", Hooligan.
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Surrounding the localizer
Posts: 2,200
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
1 Post
The reason people are reacting negatively to this idle question about the spin capabilities of a Duchess is that it indicates an unhealthy attitude to the manufacturers instructions
Aerohooligan made a polite enquiry for information nothing more...
Some of you on these boards need to wind your heads in a bit in my opinion
Edit: I'm not having a dig specifically at you Sunfish, but comments like yours and tailwheel really get under my skin at times as they have come at a the question from a really cynical viewpoint.
During my multi endorsement (done on the Duchess) I don't recall ever being told by anyone that it had actually been spin tested - maybe it has, but with all due respect to your instructor I'd be more willing to trust what it says in the POH than what an instructor tells you.
Haughtney:
I'd understand your point of view, but unfortunately as a parent I developed a certain level of cynicism about research of this kind by children, because it almost always led to:
"Dad, did you know you can (insert verb) to a (insert noun) and (insert outcome)?"
Unless one very firmly nipped in the bud any thought of (insert verb) to a (insert noun) the outcome was frequently tears.
Furthermore, such stories of the untold capacities of everyday objects, let alone aircraft, have a habit of getting both embellished and garbled as they get passed through generations, as this one has appeared to, until one day someone tests the advice, believing it''s veracity, with predictable results.
For the record, a quick check of the internet shows evidence that:
Beechcraft participated in an NASA test program on the spinning of light twins, using a Duchess. This is NOT THE SAME as certification testing.
The Light Airplane Pilots' Guide to ... - Google Book Search
To put it another way: "Don't even think about it!!!!!"
Sunfish, thats just crap, he asked a simple question..how can YOU or ANYONE else tell from a few words typed onto a bulletin board what attitude..impression..inflection..or accent that question was asked in? quite bluntly..you cant.
Aerohooligan made a polite enquiry for information nothing more...
Some of you on these boards need to wind your heads in a bit in my opinion
Aerohooligan made a polite enquiry for information nothing more...
Some of you on these boards need to wind your heads in a bit in my opinion
"Dad, did you know you can (insert verb) to a (insert noun) and (insert outcome)?"
Unless one very firmly nipped in the bud any thought of (insert verb) to a (insert noun) the outcome was frequently tears.
Furthermore, such stories of the untold capacities of everyday objects, let alone aircraft, have a habit of getting both embellished and garbled as they get passed through generations, as this one has appeared to, until one day someone tests the advice, believing it''s veracity, with predictable results.
For the record, a quick check of the internet shows evidence that:
Beechcraft participated in an NASA test program on the spinning of light twins, using a Duchess. This is NOT THE SAME as certification testing.
The Light Airplane Pilots' Guide to ... - Google Book Search
To put it another way: "Don't even think about it!!!!!"
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: East Coast Oz
Posts: 71
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Gold Coast Based Instructor
Just to narrow this malpractice down, my initial twin rating was in a duchess, and Captain X, whilst doing assymetrics thought it essential to show me a assymetric VMCA departure example. Talk about negative training. I had no idea about twins other than the theory of VMCa. I had since become a trainer myself, and i would never, ever in a million years attempt such an advanced maneouver with an abinitio student To take the negativity to the next level, the same individual, who is known for his overanalness, and his enjoyment in breaking pilots souls bringing them to tears, (who know's now who it is??) once we recovered from the spin, surprise, surprise the engine wouldn't start. Not windmilling, or crank start. So in we come, still with the lambs wool seat cover still far sucked in my ass, for a real assymetric landing. THEN, the f#cker yells at me because I needed to turn right with the left buggered, and the right brake was a sponge and we had to stop to avoid the ditch. THEN, a series of 270 degree turns in front of the aeroclub demonstrated by the gods gift, only to nearly roll the tyres off the rim, THEN to have hangar 51 tow us to the parking area, where he DEBRIEF's me in the usual screeming match that he had become famous for. It was an absolute joke.
Why was i there in the first place. Well i heard of his antics (not the assymetric departure demo stupidity), its analness to master DME homing, and ARC's, and thought my career needed a reallign as i wanted to get an airline job some day.
And you know what, he did teach me a lot that day, OF WHAT NOT TO BECOME !!!!! Needing the tender hands of Chesty to bring me out of career intensive care courtesy of Captain X, i took the bob hoover demo throughout my career as a TALKING issue in training, and suggest that it might be more prudent in a SIM. The same guy still famour for his stupidity, and the authority still allowing him to have an ATO approval, tried to kill me again in a twin otter at the same airport by where the pair of them were attempting to teach each other the otter, but having an engine feathered, and attempting to go around with the good engine's prop still at cruise (simulating a heavy airplane). Heading for the trees, i stood up from row 1, (because with 4000 hours on Twin Otters on floats with training approval, I still needed to be shown how things were done in Oz) and stood up the prop lever, and surprise surprise it flew away. He then landed on 35 @ cooly assymetric (feathered), yet running, with 25 knots of cross wind from the dead engine side, and departed the runway with a wheel barrow, downwind wing inches off the ground almost landing departure. Back at the hangar I could get out of the aircraft fast enough. I was in my car out of the carpark before the props stopped turning in disgust.
I was confronted with a similar potential incident overseas when I did a check in an Twin Otter, with a low level go around, assymetric, and low speed below VMCa. I though to myself, how do i attract these people???, but I did with small amounts of good engine power drive it out, only to bring to the attention of the Checky what we had done to the oil temp on the good engine. Nothin like bringing in the buggered engine to cool by throttling back the good one. Having said that, i had good water below to land on, and height to make speed, but again, doable, but not recommended. Again rogue practices, extreme training or negative training to the wrong person, or even suicidal in its delivery. Yes you shouldn't be in the situation, but when you don't know better, and its all new uncharted waters, only hindsite can say, GEE you shouldn't have done that. So people, choose your checkys. Some are friggen CRAZY!!!!
Be safe out there.
-27
Why was i there in the first place. Well i heard of his antics (not the assymetric departure demo stupidity), its analness to master DME homing, and ARC's, and thought my career needed a reallign as i wanted to get an airline job some day.
And you know what, he did teach me a lot that day, OF WHAT NOT TO BECOME !!!!! Needing the tender hands of Chesty to bring me out of career intensive care courtesy of Captain X, i took the bob hoover demo throughout my career as a TALKING issue in training, and suggest that it might be more prudent in a SIM. The same guy still famour for his stupidity, and the authority still allowing him to have an ATO approval, tried to kill me again in a twin otter at the same airport by where the pair of them were attempting to teach each other the otter, but having an engine feathered, and attempting to go around with the good engine's prop still at cruise (simulating a heavy airplane). Heading for the trees, i stood up from row 1, (because with 4000 hours on Twin Otters on floats with training approval, I still needed to be shown how things were done in Oz) and stood up the prop lever, and surprise surprise it flew away. He then landed on 35 @ cooly assymetric (feathered), yet running, with 25 knots of cross wind from the dead engine side, and departed the runway with a wheel barrow, downwind wing inches off the ground almost landing departure. Back at the hangar I could get out of the aircraft fast enough. I was in my car out of the carpark before the props stopped turning in disgust.
I was confronted with a similar potential incident overseas when I did a check in an Twin Otter, with a low level go around, assymetric, and low speed below VMCa. I though to myself, how do i attract these people???, but I did with small amounts of good engine power drive it out, only to bring to the attention of the Checky what we had done to the oil temp on the good engine. Nothin like bringing in the buggered engine to cool by throttling back the good one. Having said that, i had good water below to land on, and height to make speed, but again, doable, but not recommended. Again rogue practices, extreme training or negative training to the wrong person, or even suicidal in its delivery. Yes you shouldn't be in the situation, but when you don't know better, and its all new uncharted waters, only hindsite can say, GEE you shouldn't have done that. So people, choose your checkys. Some are friggen CRAZY!!!!
Be safe out there.
-27
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Oxfordshire
Posts: 131
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Quote "I'd understand your point of view, but unfortunately as a parent I developed a certain level of cynicism about research of this kind by children, " Quote.
Aero hooligan is 21, holds a pilots licence and displays understanding and knowledge. He has been presented with 2 different sets of information and is simply researching it as most intelligent humans would.
He is not a child with a box of matches and a can of petrol.
Aero hooligan is 21, holds a pilots licence and displays understanding and knowledge. He has been presented with 2 different sets of information and is simply researching it as most intelligent humans would.
He is not a child with a box of matches and a can of petrol.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Somewhere that looks a lot better when I close my eyes
Age: 37
Posts: 92
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks for the advice. I want to make sure it's clear to you and everyone that it's not my intention to point the finger. It's unfortunate in that respect that aviation is such a small community.
It turns out from reading all the replies that the instructor was probably right anyway. The context of the conversation was a brief on Vmca and I think they were trying to allay my nerves about the Vmca/Vsse demo. I have spread my initial multi between two flying schools (not ideal but unfortunately unavoidable) both with vastly different philosophies regarding multi-engine training.
I appreciate all the responses, negative and positive alike.
It turns out from reading all the replies that the instructor was probably right anyway. The context of the conversation was a brief on Vmca and I think they were trying to allay my nerves about the Vmca/Vsse demo. I have spread my initial multi between two flying schools (not ideal but unfortunately unavoidable) both with vastly different philosophies regarding multi-engine training.
I appreciate all the responses, negative and positive alike.