RAA and IFR sharing Class G
It's our good fortune to have an RAA and GA flight school working together here. Both CFI's are GA + RAA rated, both are also high hours GA Gr 1's. There's a good awareness of what's happening in both camps, and that seems to help lots.
The fact that GA and RAA students are meeting up at the school seems to also be good for our airport. People get invites to events, they hear about the aeroclub, the local SAAA chapter,and who's building what on the airport. We expect that this will increase of conversions from RAA into GA, and vice versa. Currently it looks like the elderly are going GA to RAA, and the young are going RAA to GA.
All students, (RAA & GA), get the same training here in respect of CTAF(R) ops. The training focuses on co-operation with the IFR/RPT group, by way of not baulking a straight in approach, land & hold short if necessary, and by holding in orbits or longer circuit legs....amongst other stuff. Students are also taught how to operate with the frequent RAAF ops here by 2FTS Pearce.
Sure, we have some difficulties, but it's not a case of the pilots being GA or RAA - it's more whether they have an 'attitude', or they are from out in the sticks and just don't have a clue. Overuse of the radio seems more a problem here. Since getting our own frequency, (127.85) , students are finding it easier to comprehend traffic...126.7 was just not user friendly.
We have found that RPT do appreciate the courtesies, so do the RAAF - but a very few IFR GA people seem to regard a straight in approach as a right, rather than an option dependant on traffic.
We don't encourage anyone wanting a BFR to even think about coming here unless they have a serviceable radio and know the procedures - GA or RAA. That can sometimes mean the instructor flying 'out' to do the BFR elsewhere...but it seems more prudent.
We're not excited about CTA endorsements. Frankly, most RAA pilots would rather dodge 'real' CTA. For the higher performance aircraft, usually with GPS fitted, it's getting easier. The rag & tubers would usually try to avoid CTAF(R) as well...not a bad thing, really.
Just a few comments from someone with feet on both sides....
happy days,
The fact that GA and RAA students are meeting up at the school seems to also be good for our airport. People get invites to events, they hear about the aeroclub, the local SAAA chapter,and who's building what on the airport. We expect that this will increase of conversions from RAA into GA, and vice versa. Currently it looks like the elderly are going GA to RAA, and the young are going RAA to GA.
All students, (RAA & GA), get the same training here in respect of CTAF(R) ops. The training focuses on co-operation with the IFR/RPT group, by way of not baulking a straight in approach, land & hold short if necessary, and by holding in orbits or longer circuit legs....amongst other stuff. Students are also taught how to operate with the frequent RAAF ops here by 2FTS Pearce.
Sure, we have some difficulties, but it's not a case of the pilots being GA or RAA - it's more whether they have an 'attitude', or they are from out in the sticks and just don't have a clue. Overuse of the radio seems more a problem here. Since getting our own frequency, (127.85) , students are finding it easier to comprehend traffic...126.7 was just not user friendly.
We have found that RPT do appreciate the courtesies, so do the RAAF - but a very few IFR GA people seem to regard a straight in approach as a right, rather than an option dependant on traffic.
We don't encourage anyone wanting a BFR to even think about coming here unless they have a serviceable radio and know the procedures - GA or RAA. That can sometimes mean the instructor flying 'out' to do the BFR elsewhere...but it seems more prudent.
We're not excited about CTA endorsements. Frankly, most RAA pilots would rather dodge 'real' CTA. For the higher performance aircraft, usually with GPS fitted, it's getting easier. The rag & tubers would usually try to avoid CTAF(R) as well...not a bad thing, really.
Just a few comments from someone with feet on both sides....
happy days,
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How about we have one training system, RAA, GA or even DD (Donald Duck) it ought to be the same intro for ALL pilots whether they are flying those toy planes or the real ones. EVERYBODY starts out learning the same procedures, flying in the same airspace performing the same skills at a basic level. Then when yr done to a level that suits you you get off the learning ladder & fly at that level & not stray from it flying as you where taught, not makng it up as you go. Those that want to go on & fly real planes can continue being taught higher skills where needed but when the two levels in the case above meet at say a CTAF they are BOTH "reading" from the same page! Having RAA & GA training 'reading' from different "books" obviously means that the two will meet somewhere with hassels as these pages attest to & it won't be in some quite "library" either! The stories here show that we ALL aren't on the same "page"
CW
CW
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Capt Wally
Your comments are very positive and along the same lines as a thread a couple of days ago by John Walters.
One training system for all then off to fly what you want.
Your comments are very positive and along the same lines as a thread a couple of days ago by John Walters.
One training system for all then off to fly what you want.
VH-XXX
Thanks for your input
If I can take your contributions to Recreational Flying as any guide, you have nailed your colours to the mast.
You're in no position to impugn the professionalism of any contributor to this thread or indeed, this BB.
I am not saying there are no rogues in VH... I just believe there is more backbone in the VH system (such as drug testing programs, to take the case in point) to change them or weed them out.
If I can take your contributions to Recreational Flying as any guide, you have nailed your colours to the mast.
You're in no position to impugn the professionalism of any contributor to this thread or indeed, this BB.
I am not saying there are no rogues in VH... I just believe there is more backbone in the VH system (such as drug testing programs, to take the case in point) to change them or weed them out.
Last edited by Horatio Leafblower; 12th Oct 2008 at 04:21.
Putting the differences between GA and RAA pilots aside both groups have there cowboys and also it is amazing the amount of RPT pilots that do not know the current rules either. I remember well once departing YWHA VFR for YWGA back in the days of Kendall airlines when this Metro driver berated me for not making a departure call, which is /was not required if VFR. After a frosty exchange over the radio I offered to drop in and see Don when I got home as he would not have liked to know one of his drivers was not up to speed on the current rules. Boy did the wizz kid shutup fast. And no I didn't see Don about him either.
However looking back it was not surprising then as it is today when the regulator under a host of changing names keep changing the rules we all fly under. Not so long ago VFR was encouraged to stay off the radio as much as possible and putting a plan in to enter CTA discouraged in favour of calling up for it unannounced at the boundary. Now in Adelaide they insist on a plan to fly down the coast at 500'. Little wonder anyone who flys for fun gets problems staying current. But then maybe I'm becoming a grumpy old fart!
However looking back it was not surprising then as it is today when the regulator under a host of changing names keep changing the rules we all fly under. Not so long ago VFR was encouraged to stay off the radio as much as possible and putting a plan in to enter CTA discouraged in favour of calling up for it unannounced at the boundary. Now in Adelaide they insist on a plan to fly down the coast at 500'. Little wonder anyone who flys for fun gets problems staying current. But then maybe I'm becoming a grumpy old fart!
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Regarding RAA instructors - suggest that options may be better there than GA. With my wife the choice appeared to be:
250 hr kid in a fancy psuedo uniform
Well regarded oldy with CFI RAAF on the CV
There are good people in the GA instructional scene but (generalising) they are not doing basic instruction.
250 hr kid in a fancy psuedo uniform
Well regarded oldy with CFI RAAF on the CV
There are good people in the GA instructional scene but (generalising) they are not doing basic instruction.
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Ok, so this came up on the 'other' forum. Who's going to fess up to this?
1.A GA school aircraft (I beleave with nav student) took of in wind/dust/rain storm which I watched develop for over one hour. I think wind would have been over 40kt with vis under 2000m. I watched it in the rain as I thought it was an accident just waiting for a place to happen. The storm was over 15 min later!;
2.A V tail Bonanza took off and did a 90deg RH turn at about 150ft over gum trees about 900m down 1600m long strip. Its a normal LH circuit!
Common sense is just not common!!!
(Somewhere near Warrick)
1.A GA school aircraft (I beleave with nav student) took of in wind/dust/rain storm which I watched develop for over one hour. I think wind would have been over 40kt with vis under 2000m. I watched it in the rain as I thought it was an accident just waiting for a place to happen. The storm was over 15 min later!;
2.A V tail Bonanza took off and did a 90deg RH turn at about 150ft over gum trees about 900m down 1600m long strip. Its a normal LH circuit!
Common sense is just not common!!!
(Somewhere near Warrick)
2.A V tail Bonanza took off and did a 90deg RH turn at about 150ft over gum trees about 900m down 1600m long strip. Its a normal LH circuit!
I have departed Warwick twice only in the FTDK - on the weekend of 20/21 Sept.
Departure #1 was with a left turn off Rwy 27 and back over the top.
For Departure #2, after a conversation with the PA25 glider tug with glider which was climbing to the south of the strip, I held the Rwy 27 heading to 5 nm from the aerodrome datum and then turned right to YTWB. Anyone who suggests otherwise needs to have their eyes tested!
Dr
VH-XXX,
If you really want to start flinging incidents around, I've got a diary full, and guess what, 95% of them are Jabiru postcodes out of Bundaberg!
j3
If you really want to start flinging incidents around, I've got a diary full, and guess what, 95% of them are Jabiru postcodes out of Bundaberg!
j3
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Hats off to Jabiru 5229
Don't know who he is [we've never met...except on r/t], but he and his students at YKRY are to be commended for their awareness,sensible position reporting and courteous sharing of the CTAF.
This old f**t arrives in imc often enough that a conflict could arise ,but never has whether on an RNAV, NDB app, GPS arrival, because he obviously drills into his students sensible basic use of radio, and his students know where they are in the circuit.
Those Jabs are bloody hard to see from 1-2nm behind on final though ! And the C210,FTDK[ "the one and only!"] or M20J , which have all interacted with him,are all a bit quicker.
Can't say the same for the gliding instructor who met me head on in the B55 "demonstrating a non-standard right hand circuit to his student " with the radio turned down.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Solid overcast,8.30am,and I'd made two inbound calls while in imc and a circuit call.
Flopt
This old f**t arrives in imc often enough that a conflict could arise ,but never has whether on an RNAV, NDB app, GPS arrival, because he obviously drills into his students sensible basic use of radio, and his students know where they are in the circuit.
Those Jabs are bloody hard to see from 1-2nm behind on final though ! And the C210,FTDK[ "the one and only!"] or M20J , which have all interacted with him,are all a bit quicker.
Can't say the same for the gliding instructor who met me head on in the B55 "demonstrating a non-standard right hand circuit to his student " with the radio turned down.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Solid overcast,8.30am,and I'd made two inbound calls while in imc and a circuit call.
Flopt
Last edited by Flopt; 13th Oct 2008 at 12:19. Reason: additioal information
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FLOPT
the Kingaroy school seems to do a good job! Have arrived there with their a/c doing circuits and the young lady (inst/student) was also very well sorted in R/T and SA. Good work up there!
J
the Kingaroy school seems to do a good job! Have arrived there with their a/c doing circuits and the young lady (inst/student) was also very well sorted in R/T and SA. Good work up there!J
