Darwin's Hybrid airspace.
Thread Starter
Question regarding Darwin's Hybrid airspace.
Darwin Hybrid airspace.
Can some one please explain why Darwin is issuing clearances that advise us that we are responsible for our own departure from ground to MSA.
They are calling it procedural.
Is this another wierd RAAF thingy?
To explain to those that haven’t experienced it, ATIS not available, RADAR not available. Request clearance and we are issued with a clearance some thing like, “cleared to Alice via Maver planned route amended 3000, you are responsible for getting from ground level”.
Why aren't they/you simply issuing a SID as any other procedural airport would do during night or IMC below MSA/LSA
Can some one please explain why Darwin is issuing clearances that advise us that we are responsible for our own departure from ground to MSA.
They are calling it procedural.
Is this another wierd RAAF thingy?
To explain to those that haven’t experienced it, ATIS not available, RADAR not available. Request clearance and we are issued with a clearance some thing like, “cleared to Alice via Maver planned route amended 3000, you are responsible for getting from ground level”.
Why aren't they/you simply issuing a SID as any other procedural airport would do during night or IMC below MSA/LSA
Last edited by RENURPP; 7th Oct 2008 at 10:47.
Bottums Up
ATIS not available, RADAR not available
How have we been getting airborne for all these years?No radar at Alice but SIDs not unknown, AND, the most common departure ex Alice is "... 8000 visual", which means that the tower bloke isn't responsible for obstacle clearance, the Captain is????
My guess is that due to the much publicised ATC industrial campaign, that has seen so much TIBA recently, the military boys are siding with their civvy counterparts, and the only rated person was sick.
removes tongue from cheek re alleged industrial campaign
Thread Starter
Are there any ATC'ers out there who can advise why they are not issuing a SID?
This happens during night departures.
If we are not issued with a clearance, are we able to do as we please, as in "G" airspace?
As there is no mention of this in AIP, and I certainly haven't seen or heard of this anywhere else including procedural towers, I would be interested to hear other comments.
This happens during night departures.
If we are not issued with a clearance, are we able to do as we please, as in "G" airspace?
As there is no mention of this in AIP, and I certainly haven't seen or heard of this anywhere else including procedural towers, I would be interested to hear other comments.
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Possible answer, all RAAF TMA's (except Pearce) are unable to use their Radar Terrain Clearance Charts (RTCC) until further notice. That means that MVA's are not available and ATC must use MSA.
Visual Departure criteria. Must now use MSA + 1000' to access weather for a visual departure, otherwise procedural SID. Radar Deps's can be used but no change to initial HDG until passed MSA.
Major pain in the arse. However, even if the radar is broken, procedural SIDs or VD (re WX) should still be available. If there are no procedural SID's and its night, then you are supposed to be issued with "tracking Instructions".
The RTCC problem is due to discrepancies picked up in civil RTCC audits and same errors were in some Mil RTCC's. Sounds like new mobile phone towers.
Hope this helps.
Visual Departure criteria. Must now use MSA + 1000' to access weather for a visual departure, otherwise procedural SID. Radar Deps's can be used but no change to initial HDG until passed MSA.
Major pain in the arse. However, even if the radar is broken, procedural SIDs or VD (re WX) should still be available. If there are no procedural SID's and its night, then you are supposed to be issued with "tracking Instructions".
The RTCC problem is due to discrepancies picked up in civil RTCC audits and same errors were in some Mil RTCC's. Sounds like new mobile phone towers.
Hope this helps.
Thread Starter
C-Change,
thanks for the info but no not really.
We are advised that we are to make our own way to MSA. No instructions at all. The last time I departed I advised i would be following a "XXX" sID and was then advised that they required me to be on track ASAP.
As I said we are given an enroute clearance, and advised to llok after our own departure to MSA. We are given a T/O clearance??
My response should have been , if you want me on track you give me a departure instruction.
During daylight, in VMC I have no problems with it.
thanks for the info but no not really.
We are advised that we are to make our own way to MSA. No instructions at all. The last time I departed I advised i would be following a "XXX" sID and was then advised that they required me to be on track ASAP.
As I said we are given an enroute clearance, and advised to llok after our own departure to MSA. We are given a T/O clearance??
My response should have been , if you want me on track you give me a departure instruction.
During daylight, in VMC I have no problems with it.
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Sounds strange indeed. I'm assuming DN has procedural SIDS and if they do, thats what you should be issued at night or when you can't do a VD.
Only an assumption but if the RTCC is stuffed then maybe someone noticed errors in the SIDs also ???
Give em a call in APP tommorrow and if I can find out anymore I'll get back to you on Wed.
DN APP 08 8924 2363
Only an assumption but if the RTCC is stuffed then maybe someone noticed errors in the SIDs also ???
Give em a call in APP tommorrow and if I can find out anymore I'll get back to you on Wed.
DN APP 08 8924 2363
Last edited by C-change; 7th Oct 2008 at 11:14. Reason: Add phone number
Possible answer, all RAAF TMA's (except Pearce) are unable to use their Radar Terrain Clearance Charts (RTCC) until further notice. That means that MVA's are not available and ATC must use MSA
Dr
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No weird RAAF thingy at all - just the SIDs at Darwin are all designed for use in a radar environment. Obviously the DN3 is radar only and all of the RNAV SIDs (which is the rest of them) are not suitable for procedural control. This is because when going procedural we need you quickly on track so that we can prove lateral separation with everyone else and all of the RNAV SIDs don't have you established on track until you are far too far away from DN. This leaves us with no SID that we can issue to you. If you look at the Alice/Hobart/Launceston SIDs they are all designed to get you quickly established on outbound track.
The procedure that should be adopted by the capt. is the same they would do at any uncontrolled aerodrome at night, so yes you can 'do as you please' being responsible for your own terrain separation below MSA and also complying with the requirements to be established on track within 5nm. Also of all the procedural locations the three I mentioned before are the only ones with SIDs, so the procedure used probably was what you would get at 'any other procedural airport'.
The procedure that should be adopted by the capt. is the same they would do at any uncontrolled aerodrome at night, so yes you can 'do as you please' being responsible for your own terrain separation below MSA and also complying with the requirements to be established on track within 5nm. Also of all the procedural locations the three I mentioned before are the only ones with SIDs, so the procedure used probably was what you would get at 'any other procedural airport'.
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Delay Approved,
So does that mean your issuing "tracking instructions" in lieu of a Procedural SID, because there isn't any?
Is this because the RADAR is busted ?
So does that mean your issuing "tracking instructions" in lieu of a Procedural SID, because there isn't any?
Is this because the RADAR is busted ?
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No radar was fine - just we had no screens to see it on. Outage was due to an upgrade to the electrical system which left us with no radar screens, no fight plans, ATIS, radios (except battery driven emergencies), etc. Even no air conditioning!
