Flying Without Wings - the new generation?
Join Date: Jan 2006
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As for what a multi crew licence holder does when their computer controlled aircraft stops behaving as it should, like the BA 777 whose thrust levers didn't respond at LHR, I'll leave that to your imagination. My guess is they will look over their shoulder to see if they are in the sim.
Don't ask me for specifics, I wasn't involved, however you may all want to do your research to see what Stanley and his mates went through. Scoring 100% on ATPL subjects wasn't too bad either.
Join Date: Aug 2004
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Ando, in a previous life I trained Chinese airline cadets who routinely scored 90% or more for their ATPL subjects - and still couldn't fly for nuts! Don't confuse academic ability with the skills required to safely fly an aeroplane.
That said, I don't want to make this a cultural issue (although there's plenty that could be said on that subject alone), as I have also worked with foreign students (including Chinese) who demonstrated a surprisingly good level of skill and ability in the aeroplane. However it's worth noting that these particular students had a genuine interest in all things flying-related and really wanted to fly. Unfortunately for every group of cadets I worked with (typically 25-30 students to a group), maybe three or four of them would fall within this category. The rest were just like "Stanley," with no interest in aviation other than the fact that they saw it as an opportunity to increase their financial and social standing within their community back home. And you don't have to be a foreigner to suffer from an attitude like that!
That said, I don't want to make this a cultural issue (although there's plenty that could be said on that subject alone), as I have also worked with foreign students (including Chinese) who demonstrated a surprisingly good level of skill and ability in the aeroplane. However it's worth noting that these particular students had a genuine interest in all things flying-related and really wanted to fly. Unfortunately for every group of cadets I worked with (typically 25-30 students to a group), maybe three or four of them would fall within this category. The rest were just like "Stanley," with no interest in aviation other than the fact that they saw it as an opportunity to increase their financial and social standing within their community back home. And you don't have to be a foreigner to suffer from an attitude like that!
Join Date: Aug 2001
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There would be at least a few ex-GA first officers in Australian airlines which would be just as useless in the incapacitated Captain scenario I would imagine.
I do agree with the points made about experience though. Very desirable in my opinion. Maybe I am just old fashioned.
I do agree with the points made about experience though. Very desirable in my opinion. Maybe I am just old fashioned.
Join Date: Mar 2008
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Scoring 100% on your ATPL's only proves that you can sit an exam.
In my view, you learn decision making in sh!t conditions only in the real world, when you end up in a situation where you wish you weren't and now have to get yourself out off it.
I dont have sim experience tough, but it would be in the back off my mind I won't get killed if I did stuff it up.
I can only imagen the pressure some poor sod would be under IF your grand dad in the LHS sniff's it and you are on your own in bad wx with a difficult aproach etc....
were as someone with a lot off GA back ground would think, I have been here before..... nothing to worry about, apart from could I start logging this as PIC?? lol
cheers
In my view, you learn decision making in sh!t conditions only in the real world, when you end up in a situation where you wish you weren't and now have to get yourself out off it.
I dont have sim experience tough, but it would be in the back off my mind I won't get killed if I did stuff it up.
I can only imagen the pressure some poor sod would be under IF your grand dad in the LHS sniff's it and you are on your own in bad wx with a difficult aproach etc....
were as someone with a lot off GA back ground would think, I have been here before..... nothing to worry about, apart from could I start logging this as PIC?? lol
cheers
Join Date: Oct 2002
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From personal experience;
1. The RAAF recruiting process using the psych testing etc to select people from the top 5% of population. Historically they are the only group who can get through the training.
2. The RAAF then spends best part of 2 million per pilot over about 250 hours.
3. Each flight is scrutinised and assessed.
4. The RAAF teaching methodology is much different. Demonstrate, Direct Monitor. You get shown something once, then you perform it under supervision, and then you are assessed.
5. There is a lot of preparation for each flight. You must know all of the numbers - power settings, attitudes etc before you get anywhere near the aircraft for the flight. Ask any knuck how much work they do before a flight, it is staggering.
6. About 50% of those who were selected get through. Because they are paying they will boot you out if you aren't up to scratch. They don't have to worry about making a living and keeping paying customers coming in the door or meeting graduation rates for an airline customer.
7. Some of the recently graduated RAAF pilots immediatley become co-pilots flying the Governor General and PM around in the BBJ, so they do move into similiar aircraft types.
Having now moved on to greener pastures and undertaken training in the civilian world I can assure you it is much much different. The RAAF way works and works well because of who they select and the training methods they use. The training methods don't suit everyone, some find them confronting.
Can it work for the MPL students? If you take the correct people and having the correct teaching methods - yes. Are there enough of the correct people available? I don't believe so. Medicine Law and other high paying professions want them as well. The RAAF gets some of them even without the high pay because you get the opportunity to do some really adventurous things and people accept the lower pay.
Will they use the intense military style teaching methods? I don't think so. Will they spend 2 million on each student - no.
In summary I don't think it will work in the civilian system, not having a go at the civvie world (I'm happy here) but it is a different world because they have the cash and are so selective.
1. The RAAF recruiting process using the psych testing etc to select people from the top 5% of population. Historically they are the only group who can get through the training.
2. The RAAF then spends best part of 2 million per pilot over about 250 hours.
3. Each flight is scrutinised and assessed.
4. The RAAF teaching methodology is much different. Demonstrate, Direct Monitor. You get shown something once, then you perform it under supervision, and then you are assessed.
5. There is a lot of preparation for each flight. You must know all of the numbers - power settings, attitudes etc before you get anywhere near the aircraft for the flight. Ask any knuck how much work they do before a flight, it is staggering.
6. About 50% of those who were selected get through. Because they are paying they will boot you out if you aren't up to scratch. They don't have to worry about making a living and keeping paying customers coming in the door or meeting graduation rates for an airline customer.
7. Some of the recently graduated RAAF pilots immediatley become co-pilots flying the Governor General and PM around in the BBJ, so they do move into similiar aircraft types.
Having now moved on to greener pastures and undertaken training in the civilian world I can assure you it is much much different. The RAAF way works and works well because of who they select and the training methods they use. The training methods don't suit everyone, some find them confronting.
Can it work for the MPL students? If you take the correct people and having the correct teaching methods - yes. Are there enough of the correct people available? I don't believe so. Medicine Law and other high paying professions want them as well. The RAAF gets some of them even without the high pay because you get the opportunity to do some really adventurous things and people accept the lower pay.
Will they use the intense military style teaching methods? I don't think so. Will they spend 2 million on each student - no.
In summary I don't think it will work in the civilian system, not having a go at the civvie world (I'm happy here) but it is a different world because they have the cash and are so selective.
Silly Old Git
Scoring 100% in OZ ATPL subjects is as meaningless as being able to speak Mandarin
Millions of others can do it
The ultimate point of the sausage factory is surely to turn out a supply of asians that work CHEAP?
I reckon I may live long enough to see 457 visa asians in OZ airlines.
Millions of others can do it
The ultimate point of the sausage factory is surely to turn out a supply of asians that work CHEAP?
I reckon I may live long enough to see 457 visa asians in OZ airlines.
Join Date: Apr 2001
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Vref+5. An excellent post. However, the environment the students are being trained for is not as demanding as what the military training is gearing for. The military example simply proves the methodology. I think the argument centres around whether an airline pilot candidate needs GA experience. Not whether he needs training.
Join Date: Oct 2007
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What would one of these Alteon trained people do if they were faced with a similar situation to the BA 777 dual engine failure on final?
What would they do if they were faced with anything they haven't been taught in the simulators?
the article says "some do it from memory" - or something along the lines of that.
You can't memorise a technique you have never learned how to do on the simulator.
In my opinion, GA and hour building in smaller aircraft, (where you are a) responsible for less lives than an airliner, hence, less stress levels, and b) where incidents on smaller scales happen with much simpler systems to deal with than an airliner, giving you the chance to focus on essentials, and if needed, be able to know what to do and how to do it while being able to perform other operations at the front of an airliner, from past experience gained in real flying.) is the better, and safer way to go.
What would they do if they were faced with anything they haven't been taught in the simulators?
the article says "some do it from memory" - or something along the lines of that.
You can't memorise a technique you have never learned how to do on the simulator.
In my opinion, GA and hour building in smaller aircraft, (where you are a) responsible for less lives than an airliner, hence, less stress levels, and b) where incidents on smaller scales happen with much simpler systems to deal with than an airliner, giving you the chance to focus on essentials, and if needed, be able to know what to do and how to do it while being able to perform other operations at the front of an airliner, from past experience gained in real flying.) is the better, and safer way to go.
