Circuit queens getting all the twin jobs????
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Circuit queens getting all the twin jobs????
How come all the good charter jobs on twins around the Sydney/east coast area get giving to instructors with no real hands on experience(1000 hrs on C152’s) 
where good charter pilots who have flown out bush and have real life experience away from the circuit at bankstown don’t get a look in??? I thought operators wanted top quality pilots, experience with carrying pax, dealing with diversions, bad weather, short strips, and with engine management experience and handling aircraft with more than 2 seats!
where good charter pilots who have flown out bush and have real life experience away from the circuit at bankstown don’t get a look in??? I thought operators wanted top quality pilots, experience with carrying pax, dealing with diversions, bad weather, short strips, and with engine management experience and handling aircraft with more than 2 seats!
It's called networking nightprowler.
If you are a pilot with the experience you mentioned, and I'm assuming you are finding difficulty breaking into the local scene, then maybe you shouldn't have left your previous employ untill you had found something else!
Times have never been better for up and coming aviators, but there still has to be reason. Perhaps the circuit queens you refer to have in their own way proven themselves to these operators. If you are a new kid on the block you still may have to wait your turn. Take a step back and try and look at things from more than one perspective.
Just advice. Take it or leave it!
If you are a pilot with the experience you mentioned, and I'm assuming you are finding difficulty breaking into the local scene, then maybe you shouldn't have left your previous employ untill you had found something else!
Times have never been better for up and coming aviators, but there still has to be reason. Perhaps the circuit queens you refer to have in their own way proven themselves to these operators. If you are a new kid on the block you still may have to wait your turn. Take a step back and try and look at things from more than one perspective.
Just advice. Take it or leave it!
Does someone need a hug?
But I do agree with Krusty... Operators want pilots that can not just fly and have experience, but are good for the company. Nothing is worse than bad company morale. Get to knowthe employers, the other pilots. Its all who you know. Then, when you are in the job you want thats where your experience pays off while the circuit junkies as you call them struggle to feel at ease, mind you I am sure you are not any better at landing a plane than they are and they will get their experience flying a twin the same way you did in a clapped out 206 in a bush strip. Just remember though mate....it was an instructor that taught you. They deserve a fair chance too, no? And no I am not an instructor.
But I do agree with Krusty... Operators want pilots that can not just fly and have experience, but are good for the company. Nothing is worse than bad company morale. Get to knowthe employers, the other pilots. Its all who you know. Then, when you are in the job you want thats where your experience pays off while the circuit junkies as you call them struggle to feel at ease, mind you I am sure you are not any better at landing a plane than they are and they will get their experience flying a twin the same way you did in a clapped out 206 in a bush strip. Just remember though mate....it was an instructor that taught you. They deserve a fair chance too, no? And no I am not an instructor.
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When i moved to my current job from instructing I came across this same arrogant, 'Instructors don't know anything, were the real pilots' attitude, so far the instructors on my intake have been just as competent and reliable as the 206 supermen. 
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Hey sunshine, thats a great attitude to have, I'm sure it comes across really well at interviews! Perhaps look at yourself before blaming other competent pilots!
Some of the most professional and most disciplined crew I have been honored to fly with have been instructors! It appears you struggle with the above categories!
Some of the most professional and most disciplined crew I have been honored to fly with have been instructors! It appears you struggle with the above categories!
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Get your hand off it.
Nightprowler, if you really are a C-206 charter pilot, why waste your time looking for twin jobs. Why not give NASA a call?? I'm sure they're sitting by the phone just waiting for a pilot of your immense skill to call.
On a serious note, I've said it before and I'll say it again. A charter pilot can learn alot from a stint of instructing and an instructor can learn alot from spell of charter flying. No need for either to get on their high horse and claim to be superior overall.
Also, a 2 seater aircraft can bite just well as a 6 seater if treated with a lack of respect.
Lastly this crap about instructors can't fly hands on neeeds to stop too. Regardless of who has their hands on the controls, the instructor is always flying the plane. I can tell you from experience that an hour in the circuit teaching a student to land is more mentally draining and requires a heap more concentration than a whole morning flying an aircraft from A-B on a charter with my hands on the wheel.
Here endeth the rant.
XRNZAF
Occasional circuit queen.
On a serious note, I've said it before and I'll say it again. A charter pilot can learn alot from a stint of instructing and an instructor can learn alot from spell of charter flying. No need for either to get on their high horse and claim to be superior overall.
Also, a 2 seater aircraft can bite just well as a 6 seater if treated with a lack of respect.
Lastly this crap about instructors can't fly hands on neeeds to stop too. Regardless of who has their hands on the controls, the instructor is always flying the plane. I can tell you from experience that an hour in the circuit teaching a student to land is more mentally draining and requires a heap more concentration than a whole morning flying an aircraft from A-B on a charter with my hands on the wheel.
Here endeth the rant.
XRNZAF
Occasional circuit queen.
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For your info, i do have a twin job on the east coast but have noticed alot of the drivers being ex instructors jumping from 152's to IFR pa31's or similar. Yes, most of the time it wouldnt be a problem but when something does go wrong, the knowledge gained from watching someone flying a circuit will not get then out of the s%$t. And i know heaps of charter guys not getting a look in. Now you think that is safe, going from 700kg or so MTOW to 3342 kgs? vfr in the circuit with 2 pob, to IFR 10 pob flying in the soup, dodging inbeaded storms then landing in a 20 kt cross wind at night...going from 95 kt cruise to a 190 kt descent...charter guys going from 1200kgs or so out of CPL to 1723(150kt) or more flying 206/210 airvans with 6 to 8 pob around storms, planning, dirverting, landing in marginal airstrips, sometimes IFR freight then moving up to pa31/402/310's is more sensible and safe. And a 210 or 206 can bite you alot harder than a 150 in a 3 kt cross wind....decision making, when you are in flight training you leave everwhere with full tanks, charter in usually min fuel, now hwnere this charter experience comes in is fuel planning, always being aware of alternates, now i not saying instructors are bad pilots, i'm saying its unsafe to go from 152's to IFR twins without experiencing the middle area, they are missing out on alot of real world flying knowledge they could save their lives and the 9 other people on board! You cant go from crawling straight to running, you first have to learn to walk first....
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I got a 'good' twin turbine job on the East coast and I only have about 20 hours in the circuit!
Some however might say I should never be let out of the circuit...
Some however might say I should never be let out of the circuit...
Sign of the times nightprowler, so you'd better get used to it. If these operators are puting on "circuit queens" as you put it, instead of Top Gun charter guys, there must be a reason.
Personally, I don't think there are that many truely experienced charter guys left in GA.
P.S.
XRNZAF,
I think you may be right
Personally, I don't think there are that many truely experienced charter guys left in GA.
P.S.
XRNZAF,
I think you may be right
Yeah, because instructors ONLY ever fly 152s.
And they've never flown a twin before. Funny, I've always done a fuel plan, don't depart with full fuel unless I'm planning to use it for diversion training, looked at alternates etc.
Frankly nightprowler, you post sounds as though you have very little experience whatsoever in instructing, so how about you wait until you've done it before you start slagging off about how we can't fly properly.
Incidentally I've landed more than my fair share of aircraft at max xwind before, and no they were'nt all 152s. And every aircraft's engine needs to be managed correctly, it's not unique to PA31s/210s
And they've never flown a twin before. Funny, I've always done a fuel plan, don't depart with full fuel unless I'm planning to use it for diversion training, looked at alternates etc.Frankly nightprowler, you post sounds as though you have very little experience whatsoever in instructing, so how about you wait until you've done it before you start slagging off about how we can't fly properly.
Incidentally I've landed more than my fair share of aircraft at max xwind before, and no they were'nt all 152s. And every aircraft's engine needs to be managed correctly, it's not unique to PA31s/210s
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Dry your eyes!
Nightprowler, so why do you as a charter pilot get first preference on a twin job over someone who has forked out for a instructor's rating and now has some idea why an aeroplane actually works, a charter pilot has passed the seven cpl excams and a flight test. Hang on did you pay for a MECIR and expect to walk into a job. Who knocked you back? There plenty of so called charter pilots that I would never get in an aircraft with. Remeber it will probably be some circuit queen doing your next renewal or biannual. Harden up and dry your eyes!
Oh nightprowler you are my hero a 20 knot x-wind at night time, was that with a full moon and T-Vasis and a 10,000' runway , or was that on flares and a 1000 metre runway?
Must have a bad experience with an instructor while learning to fly?
Must have a bad experience with an instructor while learning to fly?
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Said it many times before - and will say it again...
The vast majority of my flying career before joining the airlines was made up of instructing, with a smattering of search-&-rescue ops and charter in later years. All too often I dealt with the old "those that can, do/those that can't, teach" attitude. The thing is, it almost always came from people with no instructing background of their own. After years of flying bugsmashers, my move from pistons to turbines to jets was quite rapid. Never had any problems with the transition, never felt like I was biting off more than I could chew, etc, because (as an ex-instructor) I was able to recognise that it's not just background experience that makes the difference, but the quality of instruction combined with a student's readiness to learn.
C152 to PA31; PA31 to B200; B200 to Airbus/Boeing... It happens. Get over it.
The vast majority of my flying career before joining the airlines was made up of instructing, with a smattering of search-&-rescue ops and charter in later years. All too often I dealt with the old "those that can, do/those that can't, teach" attitude. The thing is, it almost always came from people with no instructing background of their own. After years of flying bugsmashers, my move from pistons to turbines to jets was quite rapid. Never had any problems with the transition, never felt like I was biting off more than I could chew, etc, because (as an ex-instructor) I was able to recognise that it's not just background experience that makes the difference, but the quality of instruction combined with a student's readiness to learn.
C152 to PA31; PA31 to B200; B200 to Airbus/Boeing... It happens. Get over it.
Last edited by The Bunglerat; 18th Sep 2008 at 11:23. Reason: Spelling
