Rex pilot shortage under control ?
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No-one should be doing RDOs or extensions. Simple as that.
Maybe those who are shouldn't be entitled to the pay increase the others are desperately fighting for. THE PILOT GROUP SHOULD BE IN THIS TOGETHER.
Apparently the EBA committee was not getting anywhere on the base salary, so a one-on-one meeting has been organised to try and bully the RexPC. I've heard several ramblings that anything less than 20% will get voted down.
Maybe those who are shouldn't be entitled to the pay increase the others are desperately fighting for. THE PILOT GROUP SHOULD BE IN THIS TOGETHER.
Apparently the EBA committee was not getting anywhere on the base salary, so a one-on-one meeting has been organised to try and bully the RexPC. I've heard several ramblings that anything less than 20% will get voted down.
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unfortunately, it is a bit of a catch-22 scenario.... the pilots NEED to work the RDO's to make a living, but by doing so, they stuff up any chance of a decent pay rise.
on the OTHER hand, management WILL pay a bucketload of $$$$ to keep services operating... just not as a %age increase top base salary.
and now with fuel prices going down, their argument doesn't hold up as well about how things are tight!
stand firm chaps!!!
on the OTHER hand, management WILL pay a bucketload of $$$$ to keep services operating... just not as a %age increase top base salary.
and now with fuel prices going down, their argument doesn't hold up as well about how things are tight!
stand firm chaps!!!
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Agreed on all counts 4x. I get the feeling that many are just waiting to see how it all turns out before making the final decision to stay or go. Anything less that 20% is an insult. What happened to our fine Australian company(s)!?! This is not what we all thought would happen following the merger.
Radar.
Radar.
Why is a rise of 20% so hard to get as a minimum when LKH has said
why is it so hard, this should have already been put to the pilot group, union with the EBA done & dusted months ago, before the old EBA expired. May be they are waiting to see how the cadets, 457 visa people, economic conditions, fuel prices, community backlash go, to water down the pay claim. Surely if this is not resolved soon the right to industrial action is warranted.
or we had to pay 20 per cent more to avoid the problem, it could still be something we stretch for
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Surely if this is not resolved soon the right to industrial action is warranted.
I totally agree landof4x enough is enough. An airline that is being run like a two bit G.A company of years gone by. Shareholders & management beware as when the next big recruitment drive is on, planes will have to be parked & a situation may arrise that is not recoverable from.
Hang on, something just doesnt add up.
One post said command upgrade failures are going through the roof, one would assume that most of these guys/gals were 1500+ hr charter pilots befoe comming to Rex. One would say fairly experianced prior to Rex. I would be interested to find out why they are failing. Poor training? low morale/motivation. would these poor souls fail in any other organisation...QF link etc.
But........the cadets, comming out of flight school straight into the airline will have none of the solid grounding in charter the ones mentioned above had.
So how are they expected to do better???
Will the pass mark be lower for a cadet on a command upgrade?
One post said command upgrade failures are going through the roof, one would assume that most of these guys/gals were 1500+ hr charter pilots befoe comming to Rex. One would say fairly experianced prior to Rex. I would be interested to find out why they are failing. Poor training? low morale/motivation. would these poor souls fail in any other organisation...QF link etc.
But........the cadets, comming out of flight school straight into the airline will have none of the solid grounding in charter the ones mentioned above had.
So how are they expected to do better???
Will the pass mark be lower for a cadet on a command upgrade?
Failure rates are up, and they are well above traditional levels. The check and training system has remained essentially unchanged so what's happened? The reasons are varied.
In years gone by the typical experience level of a new F/O was around 3 thousand hours + and at least a thousand hours Multi-IFR Command. As well as that, a candidate for command would probably spend between 3-4 years, and have at least 2,000 hours experience on type before coming up for command training! By that time the upgrading pilot had a broad range of experience both on the aircraft in normal, abnormal, and emergency procedures. Now we have people thrown into command training before they even have a chance to become settled into the operation! Even for those with reasonable experience, it's still a lot to take in.
Some of the lower time candidates have risen above that lack of experience and it's a credit to them. Many haven't been able to, and that's a shame. In years gone past these people simply would not have been recruited in the first place. I suppose they have paid the price for the state the industry is now in!
The theory about the Cadets is that because they are trained in REX procedures, CRM, etc from the word go, they should be well equipped to move easily into the REX First Officer Training program. That of course is the theory, which still remains to be tested.
As far as Cadets coming up for command is concerned, despite what B.S. may or may not have been fed to them, it will be at least 5 years, if not never untill they move over to the left seat. The provisions of the REX AOC are quite clear. ATPL, 2,000 hours total and 500 hours multi-Command under the IFR. Assuming after 4-5 years a Cadet has reached the 2,000 hours total, their Multi command time under the IFR will still amount to no more than what they accrued during their I.F. training. 50 hours maybe? Quite a shortfall!
As far as I am aware the pass standards for the Cadets will be the same as for everyone else.
Sure will be interesting!
In years gone by the typical experience level of a new F/O was around 3 thousand hours + and at least a thousand hours Multi-IFR Command. As well as that, a candidate for command would probably spend between 3-4 years, and have at least 2,000 hours experience on type before coming up for command training! By that time the upgrading pilot had a broad range of experience both on the aircraft in normal, abnormal, and emergency procedures. Now we have people thrown into command training before they even have a chance to become settled into the operation! Even for those with reasonable experience, it's still a lot to take in.
Some of the lower time candidates have risen above that lack of experience and it's a credit to them. Many haven't been able to, and that's a shame. In years gone past these people simply would not have been recruited in the first place. I suppose they have paid the price for the state the industry is now in!
The theory about the Cadets is that because they are trained in REX procedures, CRM, etc from the word go, they should be well equipped to move easily into the REX First Officer Training program. That of course is the theory, which still remains to be tested.
As far as Cadets coming up for command is concerned, despite what B.S. may or may not have been fed to them, it will be at least 5 years, if not never untill they move over to the left seat. The provisions of the REX AOC are quite clear. ATPL, 2,000 hours total and 500 hours multi-Command under the IFR. Assuming after 4-5 years a Cadet has reached the 2,000 hours total, their Multi command time under the IFR will still amount to no more than what they accrued during their I.F. training. 50 hours maybe? Quite a shortfall!
As far as I am aware the pass standards for the Cadets will be the same as for everyone else.
Sure will be interesting!
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Perhaps some analysis of the current training "budget" in relation to new intake pilots regarding the modification or fine tuning of the training programme to suit the current intake of candidates would be beneficial. The current training seems to be aimed at pilots with high time and current experience. Many coming into the company do not fit this profile and are struggling in some areas of the training. Training should, where possible, cater for individual differences.
It seems that the philosophy of one size fits all is incorporated in the design of the initial training and it is a real pressure cooker environment. This is fine for the Checking process but not for training. The experience level and backgrounds of the new intakes is widely varied probably more than ever before, hence the need for a little flexibility and tuning of initial training to suit the current environment.
I agree with Krusty that the cadets entering the REX training system as it is at present will be interesting. My comments are not meant as criticism but as constructive observation.
It seems that the philosophy of one size fits all is incorporated in the design of the initial training and it is a real pressure cooker environment. This is fine for the Checking process but not for training. The experience level and backgrounds of the new intakes is widely varied probably more than ever before, hence the need for a little flexibility and tuning of initial training to suit the current environment.
I agree with Krusty that the cadets entering the REX training system as it is at present will be interesting. My comments are not meant as criticism but as constructive observation.
assasin.
Some mention of secondment to Pelair or Airlink was made in the early days of REX being forced to recruit pilots that didn't have the required multi command for upgrade. It's been fairly quiet on that front lately. I think talking about it, and implementing it may be two different things. About 18 months ago the Airline Transport Operations Group at CASA put out a proposal aimed at circumventing this problem. A more illconcieved, fundamentally flawed document you will never find. From what I'm aware it is currently the subject of legal arguement and more than likely will never see the light of day. If it does surface, I'm sure it will be the subject much debate with a thread in it's own right!
PT6.
As far as REX modifying it's check and training program to suit a less experienced candidate, I doubt very much we will see that happen. You see, someone has to take responsibility! CASA? I don't think so. The REX chief pilot and/or his staff? Not likely. Any changes to the current system would have serious consequences for whoever sign's off or embraces it if heaven forbid, there where to be an accident or serious incident as a result.
REX have always taken the path of least resistance when dealing with the pilot shortage. Recruitment over Retention. Lowering the entry requirements and simply extending training where necessary. Hopeing the situation will go away rather than recognising it for what it really is!
As this crisis deapens, and it will, REX will truely start to reap the fruits of inaction and their inept handling of this whole affair.
Some mention of secondment to Pelair or Airlink was made in the early days of REX being forced to recruit pilots that didn't have the required multi command for upgrade. It's been fairly quiet on that front lately. I think talking about it, and implementing it may be two different things. About 18 months ago the Airline Transport Operations Group at CASA put out a proposal aimed at circumventing this problem. A more illconcieved, fundamentally flawed document you will never find. From what I'm aware it is currently the subject of legal arguement and more than likely will never see the light of day. If it does surface, I'm sure it will be the subject much debate with a thread in it's own right!
PT6.
As far as REX modifying it's check and training program to suit a less experienced candidate, I doubt very much we will see that happen. You see, someone has to take responsibility! CASA? I don't think so. The REX chief pilot and/or his staff? Not likely. Any changes to the current system would have serious consequences for whoever sign's off or embraces it if heaven forbid, there where to be an accident or serious incident as a result.
REX have always taken the path of least resistance when dealing with the pilot shortage. Recruitment over Retention. Lowering the entry requirements and simply extending training where necessary. Hopeing the situation will go away rather than recognising it for what it really is!
As this crisis deapens, and it will, REX will truely start to reap the fruits of inaction and their inept handling of this whole affair.
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Krusty - the cadets can get the 500 hours over the 5 years with RHS ICUS or even LHS ICUS. Same as Qantas cadets. The biggest limitation is the command requirement for an ATPL, of which 100 hours command must be non ICUS. Most integrated CPL courses leave you 30 hours short of that, so the real limitation is the 30 hours.
Once they meet the requirements for an ATPL and have 500 hours ICUS they can be Captains at REX.
There are many LCRPT operators in Australia who do Command Practice to get the required 500 hours ME Comm for LCRPT ops.
Airlink and Pelair (both are LCRPT) have the same issues so secondment there won't help.
Once they meet the requirements for an ATPL and have 500 hours ICUS they can be Captains at REX.
There are many LCRPT operators in Australia who do Command Practice to get the required 500 hours ME Comm for LCRPT ops.
Airlink and Pelair (both are LCRPT) have the same issues so secondment there won't help.
An interesting point JetA_OK. What's the definition of ICUS? Obviously there is only 250 hours required for HCAOC, whereas REX's operation requires 500. If candidates were able to simply log ICUS from the right seat during normal line ops (as hoped for by REX), why even have the requirement of the AOC in the first place? Within a little over 12 months everyone would have in excess of the min Multi requirement!
The problem for REX, and the Regulator, is there has to be some oversight (and accountability) to this sort of practice. If not, they would simply be doing it already. And I can tell you they are not. What requirements will define an ICUS flight as opposed to a non ICUS flight? What form will the supervision take? The proposal effectively attempts to circumvent the requirements of the AOC by proposing no requirements whatsoever! That's where the serious issue lies. I don't know how QANTAS do it JetA_OK, but In Command Under Supervision, means IN COMMAND UNDER SUPERVISION!
As far as the ATPL is concerned, you are right. Candidates do not even need Multi time for that, and the balance of the 100 hour requirement could probably be made up without too much trouble.
The problem for REX, and the Regulator, is there has to be some oversight (and accountability) to this sort of practice. If not, they would simply be doing it already. And I can tell you they are not. What requirements will define an ICUS flight as opposed to a non ICUS flight? What form will the supervision take? The proposal effectively attempts to circumvent the requirements of the AOC by proposing no requirements whatsoever! That's where the serious issue lies. I don't know how QANTAS do it JetA_OK, but In Command Under Supervision, means IN COMMAND UNDER SUPERVISION!
As far as the ATPL is concerned, you are right. Candidates do not even need Multi time for that, and the balance of the 100 hour requirement could probably be made up without too much trouble.
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JetA_OK,
REX IS also an LCRPT operator...
PT6,
Whatever you are taking to enable such a surrealistic view of the REAL WORLD, I want some too.....
nomorecatering,
1500 hour 'fairly experienced pilots'....you are kidding yourself.....
REX IS also an LCRPT operator...
PT6,
Whatever you are taking to enable such a surrealistic view of the REAL WORLD, I want some too.....
nomorecatering,
1500 hour 'fairly experienced pilots'....you are kidding yourself.....
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Oracle - I know that, that was the point I was making.
As a LCRPT operator the crew need to meet the requirements of CAO 82.3 App 4. This allows all of the 500 hours multi command to be ICUS. CAR 5.40 defines ICUS and its pretty loose.
Traditionally companies with CAR 217 systems have defined ICUS themseleves requiring Supervisory Capts etc. There is however nothing stopping someone from logging ICUS providing they meet the requirements of CAR 5.40.
This was written and distributed by CASA OLC approx 2 years ago to avoid the usual crap where 6 people in each regional office have their own intepretation governed by how big the chip is on their shoulder, or how many times a certain operator knocked them back from a job before they became aviation deities at CASA.
Unless I am mistaken Qantas use this methodology for their cadets and for low time crew in the regional ops.
As a LCRPT operator the crew need to meet the requirements of CAO 82.3 App 4. This allows all of the 500 hours multi command to be ICUS. CAR 5.40 defines ICUS and its pretty loose.
Traditionally companies with CAR 217 systems have defined ICUS themseleves requiring Supervisory Capts etc. There is however nothing stopping someone from logging ICUS providing they meet the requirements of CAR 5.40.
This was written and distributed by CASA OLC approx 2 years ago to avoid the usual crap where 6 people in each regional office have their own intepretation governed by how big the chip is on their shoulder, or how many times a certain operator knocked them back from a job before they became aviation deities at CASA.
Unless I am mistaken Qantas use this methodology for their cadets and for low time crew in the regional ops.
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Jet,
Although Krusty seems to be the authority and I will defer to his greater insight, here are a few thoughts.
I think with the recent and significant reduction in overall experience on type within the REX Captaincy ranks the issue of identifying 'supervisory' Captains acceptable to both the regulator and REX to enable the low time Cadets/F/O's to log ICUS at REX could require a serious risk assessment.
Furthermore, the whole notion could indeed be included by the REX negotiating team as forming part of their current EBA negotiations log of claims.
Food for thought...
Although Krusty seems to be the authority and I will defer to his greater insight, here are a few thoughts.
I think with the recent and significant reduction in overall experience on type within the REX Captaincy ranks the issue of identifying 'supervisory' Captains acceptable to both the regulator and REX to enable the low time Cadets/F/O's to log ICUS at REX could require a serious risk assessment.
Furthermore, the whole notion could indeed be included by the REX negotiating team as forming part of their current EBA negotiations log of claims.
Food for thought...
Going back to REX's predecessor Kendell, they also had the problem of F/O's with not enough command time to be promoted to the LHS. This was related to the introduction of the Metro 23 which was above the 5700kg limit of the Metro II. The only solution for those pilots was to go back to flying piston twins to get the required hours. A lot of them got the experience through GAM. I can't see how that situation has changed.
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The Oracle - CAR 5.40 doesn't specify that a Supervisory Captain is required to log ICUS. A Supervisory Captain may be required to conduct ICUS towards a particular level of accomplishment required under a TACO (ie Command Line Training), but this is a different scenario.
