Closed tower, RPT & GA
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Closed tower, RPT & GA
Just something we were talking about this morning, with the Tower closed due to staff shortages (again) Should light aircaft (GA) keep out of the circuit whilst RPT jets are known to be arriving & departing the aerodrome (LST) ?
I know everyone has a right to use the aerodrome, but wouldn't this make life a little easier instead of over crowding the radio? There is only really 2 times during the day when mulitple RPT aircraft are arriving together, so not really effecting GA guys much or for very long periods.
Also today we noticed that when RPT aircraft were arriving they were activating the runway lights by mistake, the CTAF announcement would go off cutting off transmissions, end of light cycle announcement was forever going off and everyone doing their calls & even the odd crew calling the tower. Seemed very messy today.
I know everyone has a right to use the aerodrome, but wouldn't this make life a little easier instead of over crowding the radio? There is only really 2 times during the day when mulitple RPT aircraft are arriving together, so not really effecting GA guys much or for very long periods.
Also today we noticed that when RPT aircraft were arriving they were activating the runway lights by mistake, the CTAF announcement would go off cutting off transmissions, end of light cycle announcement was forever going off and everyone doing their calls & even the odd crew calling the tower. Seemed very messy today.
Absolutely not! 
Airspace is not the domain of RPT with everyone else having to fit around them. Most people here have flown on days when there's half a dozen aircraft in the circuit, one of them being RPT and the rest in other categories.
By RPT, do you mean heavy jets? Or do you expect the skies to clear for a lone Chieftan to join downwind on a CAVOK day?
PS, its "affecting"
Airspace is not the domain of RPT with everyone else having to fit around them. Most people here have flown on days when there's half a dozen aircraft in the circuit, one of them being RPT and the rest in other categories.By RPT, do you mean heavy jets? Or do you expect the skies to clear for a lone Chieftan to join downwind on a CAVOK day?
PS, its "affecting"
Absolutley not, RPT and GA aircraft have sucessfully operated in CTAF and CTAF(r) environments for along time. yes it can get busy, but so long as everyone is patient and follows the procedures they learn't from day 1 there won't be a problem
Should light aircaft (GA) keep out of the circuit whilst RPT jets are known to be arriving & departing the aerodrome (LST) ?
Are we talking about YBLT here? Hard to imagine there are that many RPT movements. At places like Mt Isa, RPT seems to fit in with GA with very few problems - just takes a bit of discipline, common sense and courtesy!
Also today we noticed that when RPT aircraft were arriving they were activating the runway lights by mistake
Dr
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F27
You have drawn a few crabs here. Philosophically, your idea guarantees separation but somehow relegates GA to a lower caste.
Further, GA - particularly itinerant - may not know when the RPT is due in or out.
It has ever been my aim not to inconvenience RPT in their arrivals and departures. They have a schedule, they have pax with schedules, and they are burning kero copiously.
But, it is still only an arrival or departure in terms of separation (wake turbulence included) and standard circuit procedures provide the safety barrier. The 'cost' I mentioned above may even mean more to my pocket than the RPT guys - as they aren't paying.
Examination of a number of airspace studies indicates that it may not always or even often be GA that is the problem. We really should not encourage this myth that GA is a problem that can be removed to make things safer.
Bit like suggesting shutting a freeway for half an hour so the buses can move through unimpeded
You have drawn a few crabs here. Philosophically, your idea guarantees separation but somehow relegates GA to a lower caste.
Further, GA - particularly itinerant - may not know when the RPT is due in or out.
It has ever been my aim not to inconvenience RPT in their arrivals and departures. They have a schedule, they have pax with schedules, and they are burning kero copiously.
But, it is still only an arrival or departure in terms of separation (wake turbulence included) and standard circuit procedures provide the safety barrier. The 'cost' I mentioned above may even mean more to my pocket than the RPT guys - as they aren't paying.
Examination of a number of airspace studies indicates that it may not always or even often be GA that is the problem. We really should not encourage this myth that GA is a problem that can be removed to make things safer.
Bit like suggesting shutting a freeway for half an hour so the buses can move through unimpeded
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I think most replies here have picked up the point that GA shouldn't be (and largely isn't) relegated to the cheap seats just because RPT are coming through. From the RPT perspective - I totally agree, but would offer some small qualifications:
Operating safely and effectively as one big happy family in a CTAF circuit means everybody needs to be on the same page. Two areas where this can be a problem are:
1) Radio calls and procedures. There are numerous threads on here talking about the need for proper radio calls. Some guys will go so far as to say that it doesn't really matter if you're getting your calls right etc. as long as it all makes sense blah blah. That's the sort of guy that starts babbling away with irrelevant crap while I'm trying to arrange separation. Poor R/T leads to confusion/ambiguity and leaves the other pilot in two minds as to whether he should be sharing airspace with you. That goes for both RPT and GA - it gets stuffed up by both! I have no time for idiots who tool about in CTAF (R or otherwise) without making appropriate calls and with Transponders off.
2) Understanding of the other aircraft's performance and ability. We start calling at 30 miles. For some less experienced GA pilots that subconsciously converts to 15-20 mins. They're surprised when we turn up 7-8 mins later. (I remember being surprised myself when I was in a 172!) Similarly, there is plenty of discussion on various threads about the need for IFR a/c to declare tracking information more plainly as VFR pilots may not be aware of approach tracking waypoints (RNAV or VOR/NDB approaches etc.)
I would note that on many occasions GA aircraft have been extremely accommodating by letting my aircraft (OK - it's the Captain's aircraft
) through either because it was easier for separation (despite them having right-of-way, we could get on the ground quicker) or just because they were happy to help us get our job done quicker. I certainly don't demand such hospitality, but I appreciate it. Thanks a heap!
Sun's getting warmer - have you noticed?
Icarus
Operating safely and effectively as one big happy family in a CTAF circuit means everybody needs to be on the same page. Two areas where this can be a problem are:
1) Radio calls and procedures. There are numerous threads on here talking about the need for proper radio calls. Some guys will go so far as to say that it doesn't really matter if you're getting your calls right etc. as long as it all makes sense blah blah. That's the sort of guy that starts babbling away with irrelevant crap while I'm trying to arrange separation. Poor R/T leads to confusion/ambiguity and leaves the other pilot in two minds as to whether he should be sharing airspace with you. That goes for both RPT and GA - it gets stuffed up by both! I have no time for idiots who tool about in CTAF (R or otherwise) without making appropriate calls and with Transponders off.
2) Understanding of the other aircraft's performance and ability. We start calling at 30 miles. For some less experienced GA pilots that subconsciously converts to 15-20 mins. They're surprised when we turn up 7-8 mins later. (I remember being surprised myself when I was in a 172!) Similarly, there is plenty of discussion on various threads about the need for IFR a/c to declare tracking information more plainly as VFR pilots may not be aware of approach tracking waypoints (RNAV or VOR/NDB approaches etc.)
I would note that on many occasions GA aircraft have been extremely accommodating by letting my aircraft (OK - it's the Captain's aircraft
) through either because it was easier for separation (despite them having right-of-way, we could get on the ground quicker) or just because they were happy to help us get our job done quicker. I certainly don't demand such hospitality, but I appreciate it. Thanks a heap!Sun's getting warmer - have you noticed?
Icarus
Dr Killer, I suspect he means YMLT - Launceston does have more RPT movements per day than Ballarat.
But either way, its a veryvery bad suggestion to prohibit other aircraft from the circuit when an RPT aircraft is around. It is not only RPT passengers who are on a schedule - my passengers are, too - quite often a more strict schedule, which is why they choose to Charter, rather than fly on RPT. I do not see any reason why the presence of CHTR, AWK, or PVT category flights is any more (or less) a risk than the presence of other RPT category flights.
But either way, its a veryvery bad suggestion to prohibit other aircraft from the circuit when an RPT aircraft is around. It is not only RPT passengers who are on a schedule - my passengers are, too - quite often a more strict schedule, which is why they choose to Charter, rather than fly on RPT. I do not see any reason why the presence of CHTR, AWK, or PVT category flights is any more (or less) a risk than the presence of other RPT category flights.
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Icarus
I have, as a result of my researches, twice put to CASA that the VFR syllabus should include not just the approx 2 hours IF flight but a basic understanding of IFR procedures and why they are 'different' particularly when the Wx is flyable but nothing special. The theory side could be reinforced during the post-first-solo-navex (i.e. navex 5 and 6). This picks up your point about IFR tracking points also.
Interesting when examining JS at AV there is also a reciprocal loss of tracking info because the RPT guys are not using VFR charts = unaware VFR waypoints.
Students learn the Otto engine cycle (handy when it fails), the precise stalling speed increase in a turn as bank increases to one decimal place (anyone ever done the calculation under normal VFR flight?) yet not something critical to safe operations where RPT and GA mix like basics of what the other party is doing.
Under the CASA changes you will soon be calling at 8 minutes which is plenty of time for SA. Perhaps the call should be ABC 30 Nm / 8 minutes - again to reinforce the closure?
I'm pleased to note the balance in your post - got to break down the fictitious barrier that exists between RPT/GA and GA/RPT in some cases.
I have, as a result of my researches, twice put to CASA that the VFR syllabus should include not just the approx 2 hours IF flight but a basic understanding of IFR procedures and why they are 'different' particularly when the Wx is flyable but nothing special. The theory side could be reinforced during the post-first-solo-navex (i.e. navex 5 and 6). This picks up your point about IFR tracking points also.
Interesting when examining JS at AV there is also a reciprocal loss of tracking info because the RPT guys are not using VFR charts = unaware VFR waypoints.
Students learn the Otto engine cycle (handy when it fails
), the precise stalling speed increase in a turn as bank increases to one decimal place (anyone ever done the calculation under normal VFR flight?) yet not something critical to safe operations where RPT and GA mix like basics of what the other party is doing.Under the CASA changes you will soon be calling at 8 minutes which is plenty of time for SA. Perhaps the call should be ABC 30 Nm / 8 minutes - again to reinforce the closure?
I'm pleased to note the balance in your post - got to break down the fictitious barrier that exists between RPT/GA and GA/RPT in some cases.
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what sun? warmer? nah what planet you on icarus?
Got snowed in at my own place the other day, so maybe yr refering to QLD or sumfin'!
And as for YBLT (seeing as you mentioned that place Dr), well side tracking here a little but it's gunna get out of hand soon with BLT ramping up re more international students training & sharing the same CTAF as YWBL, the two AD's have at times multiple traffic in the circuit all trying to get a word in. It's lucky that no RPT venture into either strip.
I think most RPT drivers are or do live in the real world of aviation & 'fit' in with the local yocals! it's more the OS students on a solo nav that I keep a double double look out for.
CW
Got snowed in at my own place the other day, so maybe yr refering to QLD or sumfin'!And as for YBLT (seeing as you mentioned that place Dr
), well side tracking here a little but it's gunna get out of hand soon with BLT ramping up re more international students training & sharing the same CTAF as YWBL, the two AD's have at times multiple traffic in the circuit all trying to get a word in. It's lucky that no RPT venture into either strip.I think most RPT drivers are or do live in the real world of aviation & 'fit' in with the local yocals! it's more the OS students on a solo nav that I keep a double double look out for.
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Airports for aircraft
Well as a person who flew 737's and now flying 744's. I say NO. We should all fly together. If we all do it right, its safe. And if a student doesn't do it right, well we don't get on our high horse and belittle him, we help him.
We have 3 methods of seperation.........1.Eye ball mark one (not the best).2.Radio and communication.3.TCAS
So lets all enjoy the airspace and not let "RPT" pilots be the sky gods. We aren't!!
Safe flying
We have 3 methods of seperation.........1.Eye ball mark one (not the best).2.Radio and communication.3.TCAS
So lets all enjoy the airspace and not let "RPT" pilots be the sky gods. We aren't!!
Safe flying
It also helps if people fly the correct circuit direction at a non controlled aerodrome, doesn't matter if it is an RPT jet or the local flying school's schools Cessna 172.
Students learn the Otto engine cycle (handy when it fails 
), the precise stalling speed increase in a turn as bank increases to one decimal place (anyone ever done the calculation under normal VFR flight?) yet not something critical to safe operations where RPT and GA mix like basics of what the other party is doing.
), the precise stalling speed increase in a turn as bank increases to one decimal place (anyone ever done the calculation under normal VFR flight?) yet not something critical to safe operations where RPT and GA mix like basics of what the other party is doing.
...no excuses now
Bit hard to change things - Taity will have to re-write his books
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Bing
Always commonsense postings - just sometimes not common sense reader
It amuses me that we have the VFR syllabus with a wealth of useless information from the days of rag and string and donkey engines and a power of practical stick and rudder exercises (valuable but not generally the cause of death) - then safety seminars and briefings and handouts are provided thereafter to provide much of the vital practical information needed to aviate safely.
And, at the end of it all we have VFR and IFR mixing at and around CTAF R with the VFR generally absolutely unaware of the very different procedures, approaches, speeds, etc. Something about the location of the cart and the horse?
Always commonsense postings - just sometimes not common sense reader
It amuses me that we have the VFR syllabus with a wealth of useless information from the days of rag and string and donkey engines and a power of practical stick and rudder exercises (valuable but not generally the cause of death) - then safety seminars and briefings and handouts are provided thereafter to provide much of the vital practical information needed to aviate safely.
And, at the end of it all we have VFR and IFR mixing at and around CTAF R with the VFR generally absolutely unaware of the very different procedures, approaches, speeds, etc. Something about the location of the cart and the horse?
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"ABC type blah, 30 miles south west, on descent from blah estimate circuit time blah."
Civil Aviation Order 20.18
Appendix I
Instruments required for flight under Visual Flight Rules
...
(d) an accurate timepiece indicating the time in hours, minutes and seconds. This may be carried on the person of the pilot or navigator.
Appendix I
Instruments required for flight under Visual Flight Rules
...
(d) an accurate timepiece indicating the time in hours, minutes and seconds. This may be carried on the person of the pilot or navigator.
Plus-or-minus thirty seconds is considered accurate.
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Now, what if everyones watches are out of sync?
TT
I remember .... way back in the old days ... when I was a student in the trusty C150 ... I was taught to give the incoming RPT ( a bright yellow Friendship in those days) ... an "element of confidence", by taking the initiative and letting him know that I would be remaining ... "over land" , or "west of the highway", or similar. It gave him a warm fuzzy feeling, knowing that:
I think it took him about 20 minutes to do the 30 miles
- I knew he was there
- I had assessed the situation
- I was competent enough to make an operational decision
- He could safely manouver clear of me
I think it took him about 20 minutes to do the 30 miles