Finding balance in Multi-IFR: the gutless pussy vs the reckless madman

[Doodlebug]

Me and my big mouth. Just re-read your intial post and realised that you did not mention the word 'night', a subsequent post did. My statement that the boss would 'not have a leg to stand on' obviously can only apply for IMC-ops.
There are parts of the world where CB's can become staggeringly huge whilst relatively isolated and not embedded and can therefore be given a very wary and wide berth if in daytime VMC. All depends on the weather, the area, etc, etc.

Night-time? No way, ever! Good luck and safe hauling.

[Green gorilla]

Depends also what you are flying flew Kingairs in Northern WA and the NT and in many cases you could get ontop of some of the crap. A comment was made about ADFs used for tracking some storms years ago flew an old ADF setup and it tracked storm cells very well think the new gear is designed not to. Also its what you learn over time and local experance like I know WA very well would think storm deveolpment on the east coast would be a little different. Being in the position to train new guys on Kingairs it was becoming clear that the commercial guys are getting through the system without much real world storm flying alot different to pilots years ago as you would build up using little steps and now you are thrust into the fire.

[Howard Hughes]

if you can see through cloud without the benefit of that horribly expensive utterly useless thing called airborne weather radar. Why do I think you are bulls...ting?

Simply put, when is the most devastating time in the life of a thunderstorm and will it show up on weather radar? Therein lies the answer!

I am lucky enough to have spent most of my career (apart from the first 700 hours or so), flying in aircraft equipped with weather radar. As Chuck has already said, the number of times you see a huge CB and it is not painting defies belief! It probably has something to do with the statement above! Combine this with the number of people who do not know how to operate a weather radar and it is a recipe for disaster.

So if you want to place all your faith in weather radar go right ahead, it will be at your own peril, weather avoidance is more than just looking at a screen and getting "20 miles right of track"!

I consider weather radar to be the 'final defence' with regard to weather avoidance, much like TCAS is the 'final defence' with regard to traffic separation.

Sexual Chocolate was looking for tips to aid decision making when severe weather is forecast, so far I have seen many good tips!

PS: When you are lucky enough to have a WX radar make sure you read the operation manual and get someone who knows what they are doing to show you how it works, it amazes me how many people cannot work a weather radar and have never read the manual...

[PLovett]

If you're approaching a line (that you can't go around) of TS at night watch the lightning closely...when you see an area that stays dark that is the way through.

Even then be very, very careful. Early this year got a call to do a patient transfer from Tennant Creek to Alice Springs at night. Late summer and very balmy temperature and next to no wind on departure. An incoming 310 told me no storms on track, some high cloud and rain about half way. Good news because at the time I had a 402 without Wx radar. Airborne the only storm I could see was well off to the east.

Easy trip down. As I was leaving Alice to return to Tennant the same 310 was on approach. Same information. Good one. At CINDA centre calls me up with an amended TAF and SPECI for Tennant, things are going pear shaped but not extreme. Just after DERAK I can see lightning to the west and east but not on track. Kept going when everything lit up from a lightning bolt that I swear was just in front of me. The VHF radios were sizzling in my head set. I just turned in the direction where I thought the storm was furthest away, to the west.

The swirling dust and gusting winds on landing were nothing after that but a change in underwear was in order. Followed by demands for the return of my usual aircraft with Wx radar.

Night and storms is no place to be without Wx radar and as chuckles has said, that can lie. I have seen aircraft fitted with both radar and strike finder and once thought that was excessive, not now. As a general comment I have found that weather airborne rarely looks as mean as it does from the ground but again, treat with caution. The other comment I would make is that each region of Australia has its own weather patterns and if you are new to a region ask questions of those who regularly fly there. One of my favourite expressions in flying is - "Learn from the mistakes of others as you won't live long enough to make them all yourself".

Good flying.

[porch monkey]

In 8 plus years of flying Vic/Tas/Bass Strait at night no WX Radar, I can simply point you at Chuck's thread. Truer words never spoken.

[bushy]

Plovett

It's amazing that those CB's can transport thousands of tons of water, 1500 km or more from the coast to the centre of Australia. Massive power.

I once got an abusive phone call from an engineer, because I had "used the wrong aircraft" on a stormy night and this messed up his maintenance schedules. (xmas was approaching)

I had used the one that had serviceable weather radar.

One flight I remember was an interhospital transfer with two stretcher patients in a Chieftain from Tennant Creek to Alice. It took a long time to load, and when I got airbourne and turned on to heading I was confronted with the biggest line of storms I had ever seen, with almost continuous lightning, and right across my track. It was about 80 nm away and too big to go around.
The first thought was to return, but this was not good because the doctors had already decided that the Tennant Creek hospital was not suitable for these patients, and an urgent transfer was required.

I had a little time, so I played with the weather radar, tilting the scanner up and down, and reducing the gain to get a better idea of the situation. It soon became apparent that there were two major CB's and a track between them may be ok. Also they may decay a little before I got there.
I had adequate fuel, and an escape route.

Despite the scary appearance at first (and it was scary) we got a good ride back to Alice, with an impressive display on the way. i had been able to see the storms clearly, but the radar told me about things I could not see.

On those dark stormy nights I like weather radar. i also think a few years living with, and studying the local weather is a great help. Career GA pilots do this.

[PLovett]

Bushy, its amazing but all the weather problems I have encountered between Tennant and Alice have been at that 80 mile point south of Tennant, I think there must be a weather factory there or something!

[Capt Fathom]

I've spent many years in GA aircraft (without radar).

Despite my best efforts (Mark I eyeball is not without it's limitations, and the Mark II & III aren't much better!), I did find myself inside a CB in a C310. Geez those tiptanks can flap!

Well I'm still here! But have never been near a CB again.

Let's just say you manage the situation very cautiously, and you get by!

[haughtney1]

Chimbus post is spot on

[A37575]

Radar is NOT infallible. I'd love $1000 for every time I have sat looking at a towering Cu that doesn't show up on radar

With all due deference to your undoubted multi-thousands of flying hours on big jets, could it be that the reasons you haven't seen towering Cu on your radar could be such silly liitle things such as your tilt control was improperly used, you forgot that some types of towering Cu have insufficient moisture in the upper levels to reflect on radar and therefore you lack the knowledge to use increase the Gain control at high altitude in order to pick up that itsy-bitsy echo that indictaes a bumpy top. Weather radar and automatic RTO braking systems are two of the greatest inventions to flight safety. Yet there are people that rubbish both as systems for wimps.

I am astonished at the reckless comments by self styled supposedly professionals in these pages that decry radar as a useful and essential tool for avoiding CB penetration. The following quote is useful to remember:

It is perfectly clear that no pilot no matter how competent or experienced he is, can be expected to operate an aircraft with any assurance of safety, if he chooses to act less than responsibly, by disregarding or departing from the very standards and procedures, that many years of hard won aviation experience has shown to be necessary.

[gunshy67]

CB's and Radar

Well Done A37575.

One learnt much about thunderstorms using the older AVQ "Green Screen Radars" and I have to say there is much to learn about the later Auto Tuned radars.

We all know to stay out of Thunderstorms and the terror and in-flight break-ups they can produce. If the radars are not painting there has to be a reason. That's what they are supposed to do - paint.

It could be Attenuation; damaged nose cones; faulty auto tuning requiring manual turning (a great alternative)..............and if they can't be used then write it up in the MR, right?

And

If auto radars were so unreliable one would have to ask why they are mandatory in the "Big Jets".

As for the last line of defence "like TCAS"...........Mmmmmm............Get real Use radar but also be trained how to use it!!

[Chimbu chuckles]

A37575 et al,

Yes I do know how to use Radar.

Yes I know that CBs can get fairly dry up in the 30s and not have great reflectivity.

I just flew from SEA to the ME tonight and there was weather over Vietnam, Cambodia, India and between Muscat and Dubai. Despite all fiddling with gain, range and tilt there was a LOT of bumpy stuff that wasn't displaying in any way shape or form...even on 40nm range with tilt around -2 and manual gain trying to slice the cells down where they were wet.

I prefer a fairly dark cockpit at night...so I can actually see out...you'd be one of those chaps who likes the cockpit override light on and relies totally on radar? Like an FO I had years ago in the Falcon who wanted to divert around the Island of Luzon one night and then a week later was going to fly straight through a MASSIVE cell at FL370 near Bali.

I actually found myself wishing I had my digital camera with me tonight so I could record the radar screen, the bumps and the masses of St Elmo's Fire playing around the windscreen. I just knew someone like your good self would come on here and lambast those of us who treat radar as very useful but somewhere short of infallible.

Just a week or so ago I was having this very conversation with an Airbus captain mate. When asked what the airbus wx radars were like his answer was 'pieces of ****'.

Over to you.

[haughtney1]

Chuck I was wondering when you'd reply

[BN_centre]

As a last resort, i have found ATC to be helpful as they are able to access the BOM site and give you vectors around the storms (if in a radar environment!)

Just to clarify, we aren't able to vector anyone around storms as the feeds we recieve from BOM can be up to 10 (and sometimes 20) minutes old.

What we are able to do is to provide an appreciation of the weather picture for you (intensity, direction of travel, extent of bad weather, etc...)

Hope this helps.

[leg man]

Good information on what the last few post are debating can be found on Smart cockpit.com "Airborne Weather Radar Interpretation".

Good document on what wx radar will and will not paint.

Compulsory reading for people new to wx radar. Will help you stop diverting around islands and flying through cells.

[bushy]

It's crude and useful, but not simple or infallible.

i remember a pilot saying "the radar is no good. The sky was full of cloud but the radar showed nothing" This was the first time he had tried using radar, and it prompted a general education on radar use. You have to search for data.

Radar only reflects off raindrops, and only if they are the right size.

In the central Australia we often get 'dry thunderies" which have lots of thunder and lightning but hardly any rain.

One of the American companies had radar specially made that operated in a different band to the usual (X band?) radar, and gave them different information that they considered more useful.

Like most things in aviation it's smart to gather as much information as you can get and then make decisions.
If you are in cloud with embedded CB's the radar information may be all you have. Or sometimes it may add to the information you already have.

I also like to cruise with lights low to keep getting information visually if possible.

[maxgrad]

Agree with Bushy,
Radar is good and if used with an fair understanding of the system you can do a number of things to help you. As Bushy said though the radar is just an aid, use the old M1 eyeball. Apart from low lights I block the dash momentarily with my arms and see outside, when there are flashes you can get a good indication of shape size and so on. But the fact is if you see flashes, don't go that way.

[LUCKY-1]

A small tip an old war horse once told me, i'm sure plenty of you recieved training from this esteamed gent at some point!

If you happen to be in the soup during the day 'sans' wx radar, and it's getting a tad 'sporting', head for the areas of light grey...as opposed to the dark, (NB:- if it's dark enough to make your GPS screen think it's night time, thats probably your cue to consider a cource change, thats my personal experience!).

And if at night, stay clear of the 'light'.

OK, a bit simplistic, but the premise is good and the source of this little 'pearl' was flying the length and breadth of the land in light GA twins BEFORE any WX radar was available...my god!!! And he's still alive...guess he must be just really lucky huh...30,000 hours down the track)

As for the wx radar debate...i personally never like to put my faith in one single piece of equipment, it's good to have, but (like anything else, and bearing in mind we're talking about GA here), it can fail. I agree with the above...the 'eye's have it.

Chimbu...dead on mate.

[Ralph the Bong]

Sex Chock, There have been some wise words posted here. Nobody has any business flying into CBs. The only way to avoid CBs is if you can see them. This means either have a WX radar or fly in VMC and aviod them visually. This could mean either going underneath or above the cloud. If underneath, you can see where the CB is by the rain fall.

If you have a WX, adjust the gain up and down from time to time. You will be surprised at what can 'pop up' with a different gain setting. Never use the pre set gain as it will ensure that some build ups will be masked.

I'm with Howard H. on this one; there are many drivers out there who cannot really use the WX radar properly (we were highly amused one night to hear a QF B767 on the same route divert around every island in the Philipines). I would advise that if you have such equipment read the manual. Remember Murphy's 9th law: "If in doubt, read the instructions".

Try playing with the tilt and the gain when you are not busy in VMC and there are some potenial returns about. Try to correlate what you can see visually, to what is on the screen. That is the only way t realy understand the capabilities and limitations of your equipment. Fiddle with it, see what it CAN do, but note carefully for what it CANT.

[A37575]

Just a week or so ago I was having this very conversation with an Airbus captain mate. When asked what the airbus wx radars were like his answer was 'pieces of ****'

Obviously an Aussie with an erudite remark like that. If the radar is not showing echoes which you feel should be there (visual on a big storm within 30 miles but doesn't appear on the radar) you may have a faulty radome allowing water to get inside. When that happens the water freezes on the inside of the radome and attenuates the radar so badly that effective range is reduced by up to 90 percent. Then on descent and the OAT gets warmer, the ice melts and radar works normally while the techs write up the defect as "ground tested - serviceable".

It takes only minute holes or cracks in the radome or its seals to let moisture in. The fix according to the former Bendix radar company, is to bake the radome in a special oven until all the moisture disappears, then carefully examine the radome for defects. It worked for one company I flew for and we had no further problems picking up long range echoes.

To put this in perspective. Very few light piston twins have weather radar. With bad weather forecast (meaning frequent CB), to fly or not to fly may be a difficult decision. Given the choice, few professional pilots would deliberately get airborne knowing full well they had a high chance of penetrating a seriously dangerous lines of CB.

There are some Cb that are killers to a light aircraft and absolutely scary for a jet. Read about the Braniff BAC One-Eleven torn apart by horizontal vortices in the clear air between closely packed CB. Date was August 6th 1966. Several witnesses saw the aircraft heading towards a "light spot" in the cloud wall. The report said those watching saw a brilliant flash in the sky after which a ball of fire fell through the cloud shelf. Several minutes later two funnel clouds had formed within half a mile of the crash site. The BAC One-Eleven was at 5000 feet and climbing when it broke apart. According to the accident report the captain flew into the advancing storm front because his weather radar showed it was a weak spot in the squall line. Now that is scary.

Three years earlier, on February 12th 1963, a North-West Airlines Boeing 720 inadvertently penetrated severe thunderstorms at 17,000 after departure into known thunderstorm conditions near Miami, USA. Soon after, witnesses saw a ball of flame from the edge of cloud then a loud explosion. The 707 peaked 470 knots IAS in its final dive from a peak altitude above FL 190. The aircraft broke up at 10,000 ft. The event took place only 12 minutes after take off.

Experienced airline crews were flying these aircraft, so it is not just inexperienced Cessna or Piper Chieftain pilots that get into serious trouble with thunderstorms. Regardless of all the home made theories about using an ADF needle to signify a storm centre or penetrating the "light spot" when flying in thick cloud in an area of embedded CB, the fact is the pilot is risking his own life and those of his trusting passengers if he knowingly flies IMC without radar into a forecast storm zone.

Put another way, you may lose your job with some unscrupulous operators if you refuse to fly under these weather conditions. You could also lose your life if you do fly. Your choice of course, but I know which option I would take ...