The big lie - we train airline pilots.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Newcastle Australia
Posts: 49
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The big lie - we train airline pilots.
It is amazing how many Aussie flying schools claim they are training Airline Pilots. How come then that only few graduates get a job? When you get inside such school you find a backyard operation with nobody who ever has even worked for an airline or some who are just FOs in a low cost airline but don't teach. How can they teach to "airline standards" when the only thing they know about the stanards is what the airlines publish on the net? Then they train in aeroplanes that are old and dirty; I would not even let my dog sleep in some of them. Bankstown is a particularly bad place.
Why do I think like that? I have just seen a real airline training institution in New Zealand. The course is more expensive but they actually place people into jobs with airlines; airlines accept the trainees as they are good and exactly what airlines want. Mind you, their aircraft are all younger than 3 years and it is a 15 Mill Dollar per year operation. Full appropriately staffed ground school and expensive simulators.
My old CASA friend Dick Reynoldsen, now retired, was right. Schools that do not have the resources (and a capital of at least 2 Mill Dollars) should not be permitted to provide CPL training to stop students being conned. To do airline training requires resources as well as smart people who sell the students who are finished to the airlines.
If you want to be an airline pilot don't be stingy and get to a proper course. Never sign up with someone WHO CANNOT PROVE THAT MOST OF THEIR STUDENTS ARE PLACED INTO AN AIRLINE by the school (not just the odd student who found the job by himself and was lucky) and if you don't find any then check CTC in New Zealand because they are the real thing.
Why do I think like that? I have just seen a real airline training institution in New Zealand. The course is more expensive but they actually place people into jobs with airlines; airlines accept the trainees as they are good and exactly what airlines want. Mind you, their aircraft are all younger than 3 years and it is a 15 Mill Dollar per year operation. Full appropriately staffed ground school and expensive simulators.
My old CASA friend Dick Reynoldsen, now retired, was right. Schools that do not have the resources (and a capital of at least 2 Mill Dollars) should not be permitted to provide CPL training to stop students being conned. To do airline training requires resources as well as smart people who sell the students who are finished to the airlines.
If you want to be an airline pilot don't be stingy and get to a proper course. Never sign up with someone WHO CANNOT PROVE THAT MOST OF THEIR STUDENTS ARE PLACED INTO AN AIRLINE by the school (not just the odd student who found the job by himself and was lucky) and if you don't find any then check CTC in New Zealand because they are the real thing.
Agree wholeheartedly with your comments about the "we teach airline pilots" blurb. Along with the " we get most of our students jobs" lie.
Flying schools have been using these lines for decades to entice kids with stars in their eyes into their schools. Ofcourse soon as they have spent a fortune on training and ready to go to work up pops an "unexpected industry downturn" and they are one of the few that can't actually be placed anywhere. It is all part of the aviation industry con's and been going on forever. Here in Adelaide the biggest college at Parafield has "parent info nights" where these poor fools are encouraged to part with a small fortune training there school leaving kids to fill the void of the "pilot shortage". I know of one bloke who parted with $48000 until his kid lost interest before completing his CPL even after I told him don't do it.
You see the nice man at the college could "almost garantee" his son an airline job paying top dollars. Some people you can't help I know but there should be fair play in there somewhere too. It has always amazed me the media via these headline grabbing current affairs programs have never tried to expose the scams.
Flying schools have been using these lines for decades to entice kids with stars in their eyes into their schools. Ofcourse soon as they have spent a fortune on training and ready to go to work up pops an "unexpected industry downturn" and they are one of the few that can't actually be placed anywhere. It is all part of the aviation industry con's and been going on forever. Here in Adelaide the biggest college at Parafield has "parent info nights" where these poor fools are encouraged to part with a small fortune training there school leaving kids to fill the void of the "pilot shortage". I know of one bloke who parted with $48000 until his kid lost interest before completing his CPL even after I told him don't do it.
You see the nice man at the college could "almost garantee" his son an airline job paying top dollars. Some people you can't help I know but there should be fair play in there somewhere too. It has always amazed me the media via these headline grabbing current affairs programs have never tried to expose the scams.
I don't want to be the best pilot in the world - Just the oldest
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Here and there
Posts: 1,013
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Schools that do not have the resources (and a capital of at least 2 Mill Dollars) should not be permitted to provide CPL training to stop students being conned.
Schools that market CPL training in general do nothing to mislead students. But big signs whith pictures of 747s and young fresh faced kids smiling in the flight deck of a big jet are clearly the ones you are aiming at. I have seen first hand some of the misleading advice and coersion that goes on to extract as much money as possible for very little in terms of knowledge and experience.
Mostlytossas is spot on. With an apparent downturn looming young trainees need to be even more cautious than ever about how they spend their training dollars.
Last edited by Islander Jock; 19th Jul 2008 at 07:06.
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Alice Springs
Posts: 1,744
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
That's why we need the multicrew licence, for airlines. Many, many pilots have spent large ammounts of money expecting to get an airline job when they got a CPL. Many are not flying anymore.
A CPL by itself is only a part of what is needed for an airline job.
A CPL by itself is only a part of what is needed for an airline job.
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Oz
Posts: 132
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I work at a school where a large majority of our students end up in airlines after doing their GA time. Prospective students can access details of these people and where they now work etc. and are welcome to call them and discuss the path they travelled.
The fact is however, most of the guys/girls up the pointy end of jets would have got there regardless of the school they learnt. I don't think any organisation can claim they can turn a dud student into an airline pilot. What a school can do is instill the correct attitudes into their students and lead by example. This includes fairly basic standards of punctuality, thorough pre/post flight briefings, uniforms/presentation, modern, clean and reliable aircraft and instructors that are dedicated to teaching with a healthy proportion of G1's to junior instructors.
I think if a school can demonstrate the above qualities then they should definately market them to potential students. If its the kind of school where students rock up, get told 'today is stalling', then jump in the plane for a 40 minute lesson, get charged 1.0 so the instructor can log more time, then get sent home saying they've failed, we'll have to do that lesson again, well there is no way they should be claiming 'we train airline pilots'. But any intelligent student will bail on an operation like that pretty quick, and move to somewhere which might be more expensive, but can offer training that teaches high standards that the student can carry through their GA career and onto an airline.
So for those students reading who aim to be an airline pilot, not all schools are 'lying' with the claim 'we train airline pilots'. Certainly shop around, ask to do some backseating or sit in on a briefing, talk to airline pilots who trained at the organisation (any school who makes this claim should be able show you a list and contact details etc..), and you will soon discover which schools are legit.
The fact is however, most of the guys/girls up the pointy end of jets would have got there regardless of the school they learnt. I don't think any organisation can claim they can turn a dud student into an airline pilot. What a school can do is instill the correct attitudes into their students and lead by example. This includes fairly basic standards of punctuality, thorough pre/post flight briefings, uniforms/presentation, modern, clean and reliable aircraft and instructors that are dedicated to teaching with a healthy proportion of G1's to junior instructors.
I think if a school can demonstrate the above qualities then they should definately market them to potential students. If its the kind of school where students rock up, get told 'today is stalling', then jump in the plane for a 40 minute lesson, get charged 1.0 so the instructor can log more time, then get sent home saying they've failed, we'll have to do that lesson again, well there is no way they should be claiming 'we train airline pilots'. But any intelligent student will bail on an operation like that pretty quick, and move to somewhere which might be more expensive, but can offer training that teaches high standards that the student can carry through their GA career and onto an airline.
So for those students reading who aim to be an airline pilot, not all schools are 'lying' with the claim 'we train airline pilots'. Certainly shop around, ask to do some backseating or sit in on a briefing, talk to airline pilots who trained at the organisation (any school who makes this claim should be able show you a list and contact details etc..), and you will soon discover which schools are legit.
The real issue is return on investment.
1. Who has the sort of money available to them to spend on a expensive school?
2. Of those people who have that sort of money who will spend it on flying training? Spending $80 000+ on a very limited qualification to get a starting salary of $40 000 or less?
Also if recruiting slows down in the near future you may be stuck in your $40000 regional job for 3-4 years or longer!
I agree that training needs to get more professional but it has to be funded.
Either the salaries have to go up or the airlines will have to start funding training.
Geoff Dixon reckons that QF pilots are overpaid and says that they need to be more competitive with Asian carriers. Maybe he is correct and maybe Qantas needs to start funding the complete cost of pilot training just like they do in Asia.
Singapore Airlines is a case in point. The demand from people who meet the criteria for pilots is very low. There is alot of competition from other industries. If Singapore pilots had to go through what pilots in Australia go through there would be no national pilots in Singapore. Noone would be that stupid. As a result the airline pays for the entire cost of training and pays students to learn.
1. Who has the sort of money available to them to spend on a expensive school?
2. Of those people who have that sort of money who will spend it on flying training? Spending $80 000+ on a very limited qualification to get a starting salary of $40 000 or less?
Also if recruiting slows down in the near future you may be stuck in your $40000 regional job for 3-4 years or longer!
I agree that training needs to get more professional but it has to be funded.
Either the salaries have to go up or the airlines will have to start funding training.
Geoff Dixon reckons that QF pilots are overpaid and says that they need to be more competitive with Asian carriers. Maybe he is correct and maybe Qantas needs to start funding the complete cost of pilot training just like they do in Asia.
Singapore Airlines is a case in point. The demand from people who meet the criteria for pilots is very low. There is alot of competition from other industries. If Singapore pilots had to go through what pilots in Australia go through there would be no national pilots in Singapore. Noone would be that stupid. As a result the airline pays for the entire cost of training and pays students to learn.
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Sale, VIC, AUS
Age: 50
Posts: 25
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Geoff Dixon reckons that QF pilots are overpaid and says that they need to be more competitive with Asian carriers..
Maybe he is correct and maybe Qantas needs to start funding the complete cost of pilot training just like they do in Asia.
--
Lucas
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Newcastle Australia
Posts: 49
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Keep the bastards honest
No, I am not advertising or CTC, I am just comparing. I am an aviation consultant.
Nothing wrong with smaller schools offering CPL training but it is a bit much when they advertise they train airline pilots and no staff member has ever seen an airliner in the inside except from an economy class seat. I would expect, and so every student should, that any school claiming they train airline pilots should be able to prove that the school has an individual working relationship with an airline and that at least the CFI or at least two instructors hold an ATPL and has operated in command for at least two consecutive years with a recognized airline of the level they claim to train pilots for Level 1 = QANTAS, Singapore Airlines etc, Level 2 Virgin Blue or Virgin Pacific, Jetstar etc).
I must say that I admire Islander Jock. If only people are as honest as him.
I know too that there is a large posibility that those who accuse me of advertising for a NZ flying school are simply upset and discreditation is the only way to defend themselves. In any case, when I visited the NZ school I heave not heard that they are actually interested in recruiting Australian students; you are lucky, fellows.
Why can't all people make a living the honest way?
Nothing wrong with smaller schools offering CPL training but it is a bit much when they advertise they train airline pilots and no staff member has ever seen an airliner in the inside except from an economy class seat. I would expect, and so every student should, that any school claiming they train airline pilots should be able to prove that the school has an individual working relationship with an airline and that at least the CFI or at least two instructors hold an ATPL and has operated in command for at least two consecutive years with a recognized airline of the level they claim to train pilots for Level 1 = QANTAS, Singapore Airlines etc, Level 2 Virgin Blue or Virgin Pacific, Jetstar etc).
I must say that I admire Islander Jock. If only people are as honest as him.
I know too that there is a large posibility that those who accuse me of advertising for a NZ flying school are simply upset and discreditation is the only way to defend themselves. In any case, when I visited the NZ school I heave not heard that they are actually interested in recruiting Australian students; you are lucky, fellows.
Why can't all people make a living the honest way?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Newcastle Australia
Posts: 49
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Har far do you want to go?
Neville Nobody has a point. However, if people can't afford cars with air bags does that mean we reduce the standards? May be if we can't get bus drivers we ease off on the health requirements and licence half blind drivers?
May be there is a limit to how far standards may be reduced to make sure people can afford the training. Operators charge others money to fly them from A to B and a consumer can expect a top qualified pilot and not an 80 percenter becasue he could not afford better training.
I agree, however, that sooner or later airlines will have to pay for some of the training. Many airlines in the world do (Lufthansa, SAS etc). Mind you, if airlines will pay for the training they will start their own school or contract one and all the others miss out on the business anyway. So what's the difference for the backyard boys in little hangars?
May be there is a limit to how far standards may be reduced to make sure people can afford the training. Operators charge others money to fly them from A to B and a consumer can expect a top qualified pilot and not an 80 percenter becasue he could not afford better training.
I agree, however, that sooner or later airlines will have to pay for some of the training. Many airlines in the world do (Lufthansa, SAS etc). Mind you, if airlines will pay for the training they will start their own school or contract one and all the others miss out on the business anyway. So what's the difference for the backyard boys in little hangars?
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Here and there
Posts: 59
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
IMHO
Honestly, the only organizations that can claim that they train "Airline Pilots" are the airlines that have their own cadet systems, Period.
These organizations that get people up to a CPL with a Sim endorsement on a jet and then farm them out for free ( or pay to post them) to some unknown airline are part of the con. The carrot is always, they are desperate for crew and will "probably" give you a permanent job after your 3/ 6 mths .....that you have paid for, and not touching the controls.
Sure thing, after the free/paid period, the airline dumps the trainee and picks up another with cash to pay for 6 mths of joyflights (probably from the same school).
GA schools even worse.
Lowcost airlines that require you to pay for your training and only give you a job after the checkride.....same( IMHO).
These are probably some of the ones that accept people flying for free to get hours in the plane.
Anyone who gets to an airline from any private school or GA does so under his own steam (some with luck or contacts) but, not by the schools name or reputation.
I have seen the difference between airline cadets and those who have had to go by other routes.The difference is chalk and cheese.
Not saying that great pilots don't come from GA or elsewhere.What I am saying is that you don't need to be a great pilot to be an airline pilot but you must fit and work within the system . The cadet system certainly works.
By the way, I paid for my own and did it very,very hard in GA.I had 5000+ hours when I got into an airline a few decades ago.
Honestly, the only organizations that can claim that they train "Airline Pilots" are the airlines that have their own cadet systems, Period.
These organizations that get people up to a CPL with a Sim endorsement on a jet and then farm them out for free ( or pay to post them) to some unknown airline are part of the con. The carrot is always, they are desperate for crew and will "probably" give you a permanent job after your 3/ 6 mths .....that you have paid for, and not touching the controls.
Sure thing, after the free/paid period, the airline dumps the trainee and picks up another with cash to pay for 6 mths of joyflights (probably from the same school).
GA schools even worse.
Lowcost airlines that require you to pay for your training and only give you a job after the checkride.....same( IMHO).
These are probably some of the ones that accept people flying for free to get hours in the plane.
Anyone who gets to an airline from any private school or GA does so under his own steam (some with luck or contacts) but, not by the schools name or reputation.
I have seen the difference between airline cadets and those who have had to go by other routes.The difference is chalk and cheese.
Not saying that great pilots don't come from GA or elsewhere.What I am saying is that you don't need to be a great pilot to be an airline pilot but you must fit and work within the system . The cadet system certainly works.
By the way, I paid for my own and did it very,very hard in GA.I had 5000+ hours when I got into an airline a few decades ago.
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Somewhere in Indo...
Age: 48
Posts: 166
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The thing you have to remember with CTC is that most of the students there are from the UK and are enrolled as cadets with UK/EU based airlines... It is not the school getting them a job... they effectively have one already having passed various interviews and tests before even getting to NZ.
Of the 'locals'... AFAIK, only 2 have moved directly from the school into jobs with Eagle...
Of the 'locals'... AFAIK, only 2 have moved directly from the school into jobs with Eagle...
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Alice Springs
Posts: 1,744
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yes
That's what we need in Australia. Airlines that will commit to employing cadets BEFORE they spend lots of money on their training. (obviously this would have to be provided they meet the training requirements.)
Most airlines in Australia connot be taken seriously, as they will not commit themselves to anything. They obviously do not have a proper, forward looking recruiting and training plan.
Most airlines in Australia connot be taken seriously, as they will not commit themselves to anything. They obviously do not have a proper, forward looking recruiting and training plan.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Saw a guy the other day walking around with "Fast Track Airline Academy" if I remember correctly written all over his uniform which looked like he'd served and won medals in Nam before flying the space shuttle, only to learn he just got his PPL.
Talk about blowing wind up people's
“Oh yes airlines take out students first because we offer training in glass cockpit C172’s” MY GOD!!!
I guess it’s funny when they finish training and get a job and the AH does look like it actually served in Nam!
Talk about blowing wind up people's
“Oh yes airlines take out students first because we offer training in glass cockpit C172’s” MY GOD!!!
I guess it’s funny when they finish training and get a job and the AH does look like it actually served in Nam!
Here in Adelaide the biggest college at Parafield has "parent info nights" where these poor fools are encouraged to part with a small fortune training there school leaving kids to fill the void of the "pilot shortage
I think you will find the biggest school at Parafield only train airline pilots. CX QF EK.