Electronic Weight & Balance

[zip69]

Can any one help me?

I am looking for an electronic weight and balance that can be done through a PDA or similar then printed all from within the cockpit.

Must be able to caculate up to 30 pax.

Oh, and of course be CASA complient.

Thanks is advance.

[john_tullamarine]

For that size aircraft and above ... quicker and just as (practically) accurate (often more so considering the probability of errors) to use a conventional trimsheet ... the spreadsheet approach really is a waste of time.

However plenty of spreadsheet style loading systems have turned up on PPRuNe and the net, generally ... try a search or two and joy will be yours ....

Now, as for CASA compliance (meaning CAO 100.7 compliant) ... therein lies the problem. The loading system bit takes about 2 percent of the effort ... software integrity and security issues the other 98...

[Dog One]

Try your aircraft manufacturer, most have electronic load sheet data available.

[john_tullamarine]

most have electronic load sheet data available

now, that's an interesting thought .. can you give an example or two ?

[RENURPP]

electronic weight and balance that can be done through a PDA or similar then printed all from within the cockpit

This is exactly what we use in the 717. Fast and easy to use. I don't recall who produces the software. I will have a look and get back to you.

[Buster Hyman]

5 second search on PDA Loadsheet found: Flyware.Net

[rep]

just a question regarding weight and balance:

are we required to have a copy of the weight and balance in the aircraft if we know we are operating within the weight limits ?

(talking about a c210 here by the way)

cheers

[werbil]

I use an excel spreadsheet - I am satisfied that it is completely accurate (proof tested it many times), however I beleive that it is not legal to prove that the aircraft is within limits (ie if I up the programming, or someone 'gets to my computer' I have no defence).

It is much easier to use and faster than doing it by hand. As well as giving the exact figures, the calculated CoG limits, mine warns when out of balance or overweight, and calculates the maximum fuel that can be on board to be under MLW.

If I get ramped and they're not happy with the printed spreadsheet, I'll just do a manual one whilst they wait. IMHO much less likely to make an error using it instead of a calculator or wizz wheel.

[Dog One]

For example - Embraer have one for the E120, ERJ135/140/145, ERJ170/175/190/195. I would imagine that Boeing/Airbus would have similar for their models.

[Peter Fanelli]

If I get ramped and they're not happy with the printed spreadsheet, I'll just do a manual one whilst they wait. IMHO much less likely to make an error using it instead of a calculator or wizz wheel.

Not quite sure how that would work if you were ramp checked at the end of a flight. To the mermaid you would be guilty of having conducted the flight without having completed an approved weight and balance check before departure.

[zip69]

Thanks for the info so far.

I have found some for 6 - 8 seaters but nothing bigger.

I have a guy (CASA approved) who can approve a program as long as it has the approperiate warnings etc.

Buster, I am trying to stear away from online programs. If we can not get an internet connection at the time we are screwed so back to the paper version.

Time is the issue for us as our turn arrounds are only 20 mins and we often dont get our paperwork untill the pax are boarding. Having a PDA version would allow us to complete most of it prior to the passenger boarding.

[compressor stall]

Pete Fanelli,

I stand corrected, but I believe Werbil might be referring to non Transport Cat a/c (particularly if he's flying around the Qhitsundays). I think that non transport cat a/c do not have to have a physical W&B completed before every flight. Of course you cannot be out of balance ... but if you are 1pob in a 210, then you know you are not out of balance and can prove it on paper if and when required.

[Buster Hyman]

Fair enough zip. I apologise for probably being a bit of a smart alec in the 5 second remark. Of course there were qualifications with what you were looking for. Although...Bluetooth PDA linked to a laptop/PC with wireless internet.....

Werbil. You are in some famous company using Excel. In my time at Cargolux, all our Loadsheets were calculated using Excel! Europes largest cargo airline with 13+ B744F's...all calculated in Excel!!!

[john_tullamarine]

are we required to have a copy of the weight and balance in the aircraft

Per CAO 20.16.1 you require a load sheet in the aircraft for heavy and RPT flights. It follows that the load sheet will incorporate, or call up, an approved loading system (refer CAO 100.7 hyperlink in a previous post). Approved loading systems require either CASA approval or approval by a weight control officer (WCO hold authorisations under CAO 100.28.)

For small aircraft, there may either be no need for a loading system (the aircraft cannot be loaded outside the envelope while observing all limitations) or the loading system may be incorporated into simple loading rules called up either in the AFM or LDS. For these two cases, there is no paper weight calculation to be done .. except, typically, for the need to sum the weights to check that you are inside the weight limits.

Problem with the various spreadsheets is that they are not approved unless you have a bit of paper with the appropriate signature saying that they (it) are (is) the approved loading system.

Most of us prefer not to approve computerised systems as the computer based QA requirements involve too much work for the usual fees one can charge for loading systems. This is not to say that Excel systems are no good .. on the contrary we use them all the time for weighing and loading system development calculations ... only that they usually don't end up being approved within the requirements of the Orders.

Unless we are talking about loading systems integrated into passenger reservation systems there is no real value in the use of the homemade computer based loading system. A paper trimsheet generally is quicker, more than sufficiently accurate, and has the value of giving you a documented record of the calculation for the particular flight.

The typical longhand pilot calculation style of loading system, on the other hand, is a bit of a pain all round.

The other problem is that an approved loading system is held to be a direction under the Regs and it is required to be observed ... generally not a problem unless the ramp check person is overly pedantic .. or, of course, you are trying to explain your way out of the consequences of an accident.

[Dark Jedi]

@Buster

"In my time at Cargolux, all our Loadsheets were calculated using Excel"

do you really think that has changed ? Still works quite ok though (with even more planes )

[Buster Hyman]

Oh, no doubt DJ. I thought it was a good system actually.

I've worked with many types of W&B programs, BABS is probably the source of the most prolific, but I was gobsmacked at how simple the Excel version was.

Manuals were a lot more fun though, especially the prayer wheels!