RAAF Reserve
If a contingency operation required around the clock KC30 operations, the Chief Pilot of Qantas would quickly receive a call from the RAAF. A quick, intensive training program will quickly bring 'civilian' (although there would likely be enough ex RAAF to fill the slots) pilots up to speed to allow them to augment permanent RAAF crews. As mentioned previously, who knows what dealing would be required to get the right answers from QF.
Until then, the benefit to the RAAF in maintaining a significant active flying reserve does not outweigh the disadvantages - there is not enough money (i.e annual flying hours allocations) or airframes in the RAAF to get enough benefit. (noting that a lot of acft types currently have reserve instructors, including fast jet. Numbers are often limited by manpower funding caps; i.e there are often more available and suitable than what Air Force Reserve can fund)
US Guard and Reserve SQNs are equipped with their own airframes, usually the 40 year old A models!!
Until then, the benefit to the RAAF in maintaining a significant active flying reserve does not outweigh the disadvantages - there is not enough money (i.e annual flying hours allocations) or airframes in the RAAF to get enough benefit. (noting that a lot of acft types currently have reserve instructors, including fast jet. Numbers are often limited by manpower funding caps; i.e there are often more available and suitable than what Air Force Reserve can fund)
US Guard and Reserve SQNs are equipped with their own airframes, usually the 40 year old A models!!
Nunc est bibendum
point0five, a bit of lateral thinking could solve that. Given that QF already maintain the fleet, why not have the BBJ crewed by QF/DJ drivers almost exclusively. Much of the flying is 'known'- APEC, G8, etc. To take care of the legalities you could enlist those crew who wanted to do the flying into the RAAF reserve so that they can fly to those rules when required and then they can just do a week of RAAF flying. Next week someone else does it. We already do standbys and we're pretty used to disappearing for ten days at time.
Not saying there aren't hurdles, just saying that they can be worked through. Cost/benefit- as ftrplt alludes to- needs to be done and it may work out that it's not worth while but to exclude such a large pool of highly skilled crew on the basis that they haven't been through the fiery hoops is cutting of your nose to spite your face. I wonder if being chronically short of pilots in a few years time will play a part in forcing a change?!? Time will tell.
Not saying there aren't hurdles, just saying that they can be worked through. Cost/benefit- as ftrplt alludes to- needs to be done and it may work out that it's not worth while but to exclude such a large pool of highly skilled crew on the basis that they haven't been through the fiery hoops is cutting of your nose to spite your face. I wonder if being chronically short of pilots in a few years time will play a part in forcing a change?!? Time will tell.
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 190
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Reserve personnel already play an important role in the ADF. There's no reason to think that the RAAF doesn't already make good use of reserve personnel, both direct entry and ex-service.
The training involved in incorporating a direct entry civvie pilot into a raaf sqn would outweigh the benefits (IMHO), unless they were available full time. (The raaf already have a scheme for that.)
If it's such a good idea, why don't Qantas take on a Virgin Pilot for reserve work. I'm sure the differences in culture and mission between those organisations are less than the difference between them and the raaf.
The training involved in incorporating a direct entry civvie pilot into a raaf sqn would outweigh the benefits (IMHO), unless they were available full time. (The raaf already have a scheme for that.)
If it's such a good idea, why don't Qantas take on a Virgin Pilot for reserve work. I'm sure the differences in culture and mission between those organisations are less than the difference between them and the raaf.
Funny how this always gets into a us vs them. (and i have plenty of GA, mil and now a little RPT time)
The reason there are not many reserve positions for flying is simple
There are not that many aircraft/flying jobs in the RAAF, it isn't that big!
There are a lot of RAAF pilots in ground jobs also waiting to go back to a flying job funny old thing and they will be as happy as a Qantas pilot losing his job to a RAAF reservist if pilots who haven't done the boggie thing start taking their jobs.
Now this isn't to say there isn't some merit in getting some A330 pilots in to help start up the KC30, in fact I think this would be a good thing.
It may be a necessary thing when we get to 20% of the size of the USAF. To put it into perspective however, there is more firepower on 2 (you could argue 1) American carrier than we have in our entire airforce.
When we have 20 A330s, 20 737 10 C17 it will be a requirement....but that ain't goona happen for ahwile
Now can we all have a beer and get along nicely?
The reason there are not many reserve positions for flying is simple
There are not that many aircraft/flying jobs in the RAAF, it isn't that big!
There are a lot of RAAF pilots in ground jobs also waiting to go back to a flying job funny old thing and they will be as happy as a Qantas pilot losing his job to a RAAF reservist if pilots who haven't done the boggie thing start taking their jobs.
Now this isn't to say there isn't some merit in getting some A330 pilots in to help start up the KC30, in fact I think this would be a good thing.
It may be a necessary thing when we get to 20% of the size of the USAF. To put it into perspective however, there is more firepower on 2 (you could argue 1) American carrier than we have in our entire airforce.
When we have 20 A330s, 20 737 10 C17 it will be a requirement....but that ain't goona happen for ahwile
Now can we all have a beer and get along nicely?
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Stuck in the middle...
Posts: 1,638
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
TLAW,
I suspect you're right... however there's also an argument that having some toys like A330s and 73Gs in the RAAF provides an incentive for the young blokes coming through; if you stack them all with airlines guys then there are no seats for the ones coming through the ranks.
There might also be differences between just learning to fly the aircraft (doubtless very professionally) under airline ops conditions and learning to operate it in close company with other aircraft (of varying sizes & handling capabilities) and in a tactical environment and under Ronnie's procedures.
All that said, would one be correct in assuming that there will be a few Ronnies popping up on QF 330 flight decks for type training (if it hasn't started to happen already)?
And, when do the first MRTTs arrive in Oz?
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmcleod
You want to let a Qantas captain play in a hornet on the weekend for fun?
Actually, I think the original suggestion was for a Qantas A330 Captain to fly a RAAF A330.
Originally Posted by dmcleod
You want to let a Qantas captain play in a hornet on the weekend for fun?
Actually, I think the original suggestion was for a Qantas A330 Captain to fly a RAAF A330.
There might also be differences between just learning to fly the aircraft (doubtless very professionally) under airline ops conditions and learning to operate it in close company with other aircraft (of varying sizes & handling capabilities) and in a tactical environment and under Ronnie's procedures.
All that said, would one be correct in assuming that there will be a few Ronnies popping up on QF 330 flight decks for type training (if it hasn't started to happen already)?
And, when do the first MRTTs arrive in Oz?
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: A Happy Place
Age: 52
Posts: 101
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Something to throw into the mix. In a March 2008 interview with Ausaviation the DCAF said that the RAAF is currently running Hercs at 1.7 crew per aircraft and would like to go to 3 per aircraft to achieve future requirements. That sure doesn't suggest the RAAF is flush with aircrew. Put civies into tankers (the Brits have contracted this out to civies already) and free up crews for hercs/C17s. I'm sure the boys on their 4th tour of the MEAO would agree with that.
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Oz
Posts: 213
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Let's consider the reverse of this, the RAAF has lots of experienced technicians, perhaps Qantas could employ them on a part-time basis to cover any LAME shortfalls or contingencies 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Oz
Posts: 213
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Keg, I still contend that VIP OPS isn't at all predictable enough for this type of arrangement. Also, if I was GD, I'd be looking at how my pilots are presently rostered if they can be spared for a week here and there to do reserve work.
Agree that cost/benefit needs to be looked at from the Governements side. But I suspect that isn't really the "benefit" that most people here are discussing: "what's in it for me"?
Agree that cost/benefit needs to be looked at from the Governements side. But I suspect that isn't really the "benefit" that most people here are discussing: "what's in it for me"?
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 188
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
OZBIGGLES 
I know at least half a dozen pilots course mates sitting in ground jobs who wold be rolling in their office graves at the idea of filling flying jobs with civilians. I know i dont want any outsider taking my A330 spot when it comes around. And that is not trying to make it us vs them, thats just saying i have done the RAAF training, done the sh&t kicker at the squadron, been everyones bitch and i would hope that the best jobs (in terms of aircraft) don't get palmed off to those who haven't been through the ringer. Imagine a pilot from outside qantas picking his/her aircraft and going straight to captain - now that would go down well.
Perhaps we should consider recruiting a whole bunch of reservist blunts to fill the pointless ground jobs which pilots are sent to that way they can get back to what the are trained and paid to do.
I know at least half a dozen pilots course mates sitting in ground jobs who wold be rolling in their office graves at the idea of filling flying jobs with civilians. I know i dont want any outsider taking my A330 spot when it comes around. And that is not trying to make it us vs them, thats just saying i have done the RAAF training, done the sh&t kicker at the squadron, been everyones bitch and i would hope that the best jobs (in terms of aircraft) don't get palmed off to those who haven't been through the ringer. Imagine a pilot from outside qantas picking his/her aircraft and going straight to captain - now that would go down well.
Perhaps we should consider recruiting a whole bunch of reservist blunts to fill the pointless ground jobs which pilots are sent to that way they can get back to what the are trained and paid to do.
Trojan:
Errrr, no. It's not counterproductive at all. It's about ensuring that exactly the same behaviours and levels of competence are demonstrated by all ADF personnel. In Military planning, levels of risk are accepted that are way beyond anything allowed in civil operations - including driving heavy vehicles.
To put it another way, it's going to be a bit of a disaster if you, with your civil heavy vehicle licence, have never experienced a wet muddy, 35 degree slope in a fully loaded Army 6WD Five Tonner - as you may be required to do even on a weekend bivouac.
As for civil pilots flying military aircraft, I got one of the biggest shocks of my life when I compared the design and operation of B767 systems with the F18, talk about risk!!!
We did one mod that doubled the time an F18 Pilot had to eject if a blade came off and was going to go into a fuel tank - the RAAF were chuffed!
...Time went from about 1.5 seconds to about three seconds
Still want to fly an F18?
Not much from civvy street is recognised in the ADF. If you own your own Landrover and have a civvy heavy vehicle drivers licence, you will still not be allowed to drive a LR, or any other military vehicle for that matter, in the military until you do the appropriate drivers course.
This is counter productive but it is the way the ADF 'works'.
This is counter productive but it is the way the ADF 'works'.
Errrr, no. It's not counterproductive at all. It's about ensuring that exactly the same behaviours and levels of competence are demonstrated by all ADF personnel. In Military planning, levels of risk are accepted that are way beyond anything allowed in civil operations - including driving heavy vehicles.
To put it another way, it's going to be a bit of a disaster if you, with your civil heavy vehicle licence, have never experienced a wet muddy, 35 degree slope in a fully loaded Army 6WD Five Tonner - as you may be required to do even on a weekend bivouac.
As for civil pilots flying military aircraft, I got one of the biggest shocks of my life when I compared the design and operation of B767 systems with the F18, talk about risk!!!
We did one mod that doubled the time an F18 Pilot had to eject if a blade came off and was going to go into a fuel tank - the RAAF were chuffed!
...Time went from about 1.5 seconds to about three seconds
Still want to fly an F18?
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 25
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Aside from the us and them argument - how happy are Quaintarse and the rest going to be to find that their pilots are now flying say 200 of their annual crew duty hours with the RAAF, I'm sure the accountants would just love that and just employ more pilots to cover the crewing shortfall................
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: West Coast
Age: 58
Posts: 37
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Not quite right there Trojan, with the vehicle driving.
I have numerous RAAF vehicle codes on my SAD that I have not done a military course for, but have been given them as an equivilant to my civilian licence. TCI. TC, Coaster, 4x4 Hino, To-mo etc.
RAAF reserve more than happy to call us when they need a driver, but can't get one who is qualified from within the system.
I have numerous RAAF vehicle codes on my SAD that I have not done a military course for, but have been given them as an equivilant to my civilian licence. TCI. TC, Coaster, 4x4 Hino, To-mo etc.
RAAF reserve more than happy to call us when they need a driver, but can't get one who is qualified from within the system.
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Great Southern Land
Age: 57
Posts: 434
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Gundog01
Perhaps we should consider recruiting a whole bunch of reservist blunts to fill the pointless ground jobs which pilots are sent to that way they can get back to what the are trained and paid to do.
Funny how this always gets into a us vs them. (and i have plenty of GA, mil and now a little RPT time)
The reason there are not many reserve positions for flying is simple
There are not that many aircraft/flying jobs in the RAAF, it isn't that big!
There are a lot of RAAF pilots in ground jobs also waiting to go back to a flying job funny old thing and they will be as happy as a Qantas pilot losing his job to a RAAF reservist if pilots who haven't done the boggie thing start taking their jobs.
Now this isn't to say there isn't some merit in getting some A330 pilots in to help start up the KC30, in fact I think this would be a good thing.
It may be a necessary thing when we get to 20% of the size of the USAF. To put it into perspective however, there is more firepower on 2 (you could argue 1) American carrier than we have in our entire airforce.
When we have 20 A330s, 20 737 10 C17 it will be a requirement....but that ain't goona happen for ahwile
Now can we all have a beer and get along nicely?
The reason there are not many reserve positions for flying is simple
There are not that many aircraft/flying jobs in the RAAF, it isn't that big!
There are a lot of RAAF pilots in ground jobs also waiting to go back to a flying job funny old thing and they will be as happy as a Qantas pilot losing his job to a RAAF reservist if pilots who haven't done the boggie thing start taking their jobs.
Now this isn't to say there isn't some merit in getting some A330 pilots in to help start up the KC30, in fact I think this would be a good thing.
It may be a necessary thing when we get to 20% of the size of the USAF. To put it into perspective however, there is more firepower on 2 (you could argue 1) American carrier than we have in our entire airforce.
When we have 20 A330s, 20 737 10 C17 it will be a requirement....but that ain't goona happen for ahwile
Now can we all have a beer and get along nicely?
Not quite right there Trojan, with the vehicle driving.
I have numerous RAAF vehicle codes on my SAD that I have not done a military course for, but have been given them as an equivilant to my civilian licence. TCI. TC, Coaster, 4x4 Hino, To-mo etc.
I have numerous RAAF vehicle codes on my SAD that I have not done a military course for, but have been given them as an equivilant to my civilian licence. TCI. TC, Coaster, 4x4 Hino, To-mo etc.
Sunfish
I understand why its done this way, I just don't believe it achieves the desired outcome.
Last edited by Trojan1981; 13th Jul 2008 at 08:09. Reason: can't type can't spell
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Australia
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
they do that
OPSO's or Operations Officers are just the folk Like This-Do That, was talking about. It used to be justy a Reservist Category but has recently become part of the Permanent Air Force. This change should see more pilots keep flying.
Nunc est bibendum
As a side note, how long until the OPSOs also push for the Southern Cross brevet given that 'it's not about who drives the aeroplane, it's about the delivery of air combat power'. 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Oz
Posts: 213
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Too true
And then we can see the introduction of an eight winged brevet for pilots... but that idea didn't seem to get a particularly warm reception the last time it was mooted.
And then we can see the introduction of an eight winged brevet for pilots... but that idea didn't seem to get a particularly warm reception the last time it was mooted.
As a current RAAF Reserve pilot I agree that experienced civil pilots on certain types that could be utilised by flying squadrons for basic type training if the impetus was there.
However there are complications - if civie pilots were to operate state-registered and ADF-owned aircraft, then they must fly under the Defence Act (not the Civil Aviation Act). There are lots of things that hang off this, like ADF liability, compensation, and the like. Licensing does not apply and there is a litany of Defence Instructions, Standing Instructions that you have to work under and understand (like another lot of CAA - CASRs, CAOs etc... only many more levels and books!). Then there is the cultural aspect, terminology, where flying operates as an organisational airpower thing. Your Commanding Officer uses their legal command under this heirarchy... they are responsible to CAF for their unit missions, flying safety and duty of care. So bringing pilots without a military background into deployable flying units could put a lot of 'holes in the cheese'. There are enough differences when the RAAF gets a Navy or Army transfer!! Also civil pilots would have limited employability...as there is little actual flying is done in the RAAF...and they could just walk away if they chose to, which is unacceptable to defence commanders. So basically the ADF will only use civil expertise that is it needs to start up a military capability, then quickly convert to in-house ops. It is then more productive to capture known departees into the Reserve, or send mil pilots outside to be trained then haul them back in. Just like any employer that wants to keep their talent.
As Trojan 1981 said, this is the way the ADF works. The system is set up so our government can send you to support/do violent operations, and do things CASA would not dream of allowing...all under a legal framework. No amount of argument on experience can change it....and even the VIP Squadron operates under the same framework.
As for the very small number of KC30 MRTT being bought, I know a few ex-mil QFIs flying A330 now with relevant mil backgrounds and any one would be a shoe-in for Reserve flying on the MRTT (....if they wanted to deploy with the knucks for weeks and suckle hornets for hours)
However there are complications - if civie pilots were to operate state-registered and ADF-owned aircraft, then they must fly under the Defence Act (not the Civil Aviation Act). There are lots of things that hang off this, like ADF liability, compensation, and the like. Licensing does not apply and there is a litany of Defence Instructions, Standing Instructions that you have to work under and understand (like another lot of CAA - CASRs, CAOs etc... only many more levels and books!). Then there is the cultural aspect, terminology, where flying operates as an organisational airpower thing. Your Commanding Officer uses their legal command under this heirarchy... they are responsible to CAF for their unit missions, flying safety and duty of care. So bringing pilots without a military background into deployable flying units could put a lot of 'holes in the cheese'. There are enough differences when the RAAF gets a Navy or Army transfer!! Also civil pilots would have limited employability...as there is little actual flying is done in the RAAF...and they could just walk away if they chose to, which is unacceptable to defence commanders. So basically the ADF will only use civil expertise that is it needs to start up a military capability, then quickly convert to in-house ops. It is then more productive to capture known departees into the Reserve, or send mil pilots outside to be trained then haul them back in. Just like any employer that wants to keep their talent.
As Trojan 1981 said, this is the way the ADF works. The system is set up so our government can send you to support/do violent operations, and do things CASA would not dream of allowing...all under a legal framework. No amount of argument on experience can change it....and even the VIP Squadron operates under the same framework.
As for the very small number of KC30 MRTT being bought, I know a few ex-mil QFIs flying A330 now with relevant mil backgrounds and any one would be a shoe-in for Reserve flying on the MRTT (....if they wanted to deploy with the knucks for weeks and suckle hornets for hours)
Last edited by Roller Merlin; 14th Jul 2008 at 05:53.
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Great Southern Land
Age: 57
Posts: 434
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RM good post...... Enlighten me if you can - how do the Yanks manage this? Keep in mind many ANG pilots are NOT airline pilots but stockbrokers, teachers, lawyers, engineers, etc in the civvie employment. Surely they face some of the same issues?
Cheers
BTW I concede that flying an ADF aircraft involves a lot of considerations not present in (eg) a Cav Squadron or Arty Fd Regt, but:
This also applies in many similar ways to an IT software engineer who is an ARes GSO in (eg) a truck SQN in RACT. Surely if the need were there (ie the need for extra P/T aircrew) then a way of training and employing such folks could be found?
Cheers
BTW I concede that flying an ADF aircraft involves a lot of considerations not present in (eg) a Cav Squadron or Arty Fd Regt, but:
...they must fly under the Defence Act (not the Civil Aviation Act). There are lots of things that hang off this, like ADF liability, compensation, and the like. Licensing does not apply and there is a litany of Defence Instructions, Standing Instructions that you have to work under and understand (like another lot of CAA - CASRs, CAOs etc... only many more levels and books!). Then there is the cultural aspect, terminology, where flying operates as an organisational airpower thing. Your Commanding Officer uses their legal command under this heirarchy... they are responsible to CAF for their unit missions, flying safety and duty of care.