How goes the REX EBA "negotiations" ?
tiptoeturkey.
It was a reasonable question as there was some ambiguity to your comments. I'm quite happy to debate the topic (after all that's what this forum is about), but if all we get from you is mixed messages, then perhaps you had better take your bat and ball and seek the refuge of those with nothing left to add.
Goodbye.
Raynman, Dude!!!
Go far enough East, and it becomes West.
It was a reasonable question as there was some ambiguity to your comments. I'm quite happy to debate the topic (after all that's what this forum is about), but if all we get from you is mixed messages, then perhaps you had better take your bat and ball and seek the refuge of those with nothing left to add.
Goodbye.
Raynman, Dude!!!
Go far enough East, and it becomes West.
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Cryptic is one way of putting it !
Honestly Tippy is english your first language?
From the ambiguous nature of your posts id probably haved guessed an origin somewhere between mars and pluto
Honestly Tippy is english your first language?
From the ambiguous nature of your posts id probably haved guessed an origin somewhere between mars and pluto
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That will achieve nothing Capt Hill, look at all the other strikes that have taken place over the years, all have achieved f@ck all. All it will successfully do is disrupt hundreds of passengers, after all they are the ones who pay our wages.
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so what would YOU suggest, STOOGE ?
Maybe just bend over and cop it again? maybe you could write the chairman a strongly worded email? maybe you could stop doing days off... all by yourself, as no-one else will back you up? maybe you can just accept it ?
MAYBE, like EVERYONE else, you could leave for greener pastures?
Maybe just bend over and cop it again? maybe you could write the chairman a strongly worded email? maybe you could stop doing days off... all by yourself, as no-one else will back you up? maybe you can just accept it ?
MAYBE, like EVERYONE else, you could leave for greener pastures?
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Stooge, real clever reply mate.
The ONLY way we will get reasonable terms is if we stop providing labour at less than reasonable terms - plain and simple really.
That means we do everything to achieve fair negotiations, and failing that we either withdraw our labour (strike) or bend over and cop it.
We have to have a target and be totally willing to follow it through (leadership from the union...?). "other strikes that have taken place over the years"... which have failed, have consistently failed to follow through as a united group, and in the end allow management to use spin and propaganda to dictate the terms.
These S&*^bags in management see screwing us and paying less in real terms year to year as efficiency gains. 5% p.a. these days is NOT even a pay RISE, it is just not a pay cut.
The ONLY way we will get reasonable terms is if we stop providing labour at less than reasonable terms - plain and simple really.
That means we do everything to achieve fair negotiations, and failing that we either withdraw our labour (strike) or bend over and cop it.
We have to have a target and be totally willing to follow it through (leadership from the union...?). "other strikes that have taken place over the years"... which have failed, have consistently failed to follow through as a united group, and in the end allow management to use spin and propaganda to dictate the terms.
These S&*^bags in management see screwing us and paying less in real terms year to year as efficiency gains. 5% p.a. these days is NOT even a pay RISE, it is just not a pay cut.
Despite what we believe we are worth, management obviously do not share that sentiment. IMHO strike action would be difficult to justify at this stage, and would only serve to demonise the pilot group in the minds of the travelling public.
If the EBA "negotiations" bog down however (and they will), then some sort of leverage must be employed. Make no mistake leverage is the only thing they (management) understand. So what do REX pilots do? A common weekend scenerio has developed where approx 30-40 flights per weekend are now uncrewed every Friday. Crewing have been manageing to cover most of these services by calling on pilots to work on their days off. The payment for such is around 80% of what it was 10 years ago! After Tax it is becoming more difficult to justify, but after much running around there are still enough pilots willing to do it. When you consider the abysmal wages of F/O's in particular, it is not surprising that crewing are usually (not always) able to scrape together enough crews.
A ban on overtime would dramatically alter the balance of the game. Already sick leave is on the rise (winter, and crews becoming run down). If pilots refuse to work on their days off, then I feel the value of these professionals may be put into sharper focus. What is required is a request from the pilot representative body to get the ball rolling. I believe that all REX pilots would adhere to such a request, especially if it were for a limited time, (say 4 weeks) just to bring a certain amount of leverage to bear, and to demonstrate to the non believers that pilots no longer grow on trees!
If the EBA "negotiations" bog down however (and they will), then some sort of leverage must be employed. Make no mistake leverage is the only thing they (management) understand. So what do REX pilots do? A common weekend scenerio has developed where approx 30-40 flights per weekend are now uncrewed every Friday. Crewing have been manageing to cover most of these services by calling on pilots to work on their days off. The payment for such is around 80% of what it was 10 years ago! After Tax it is becoming more difficult to justify, but after much running around there are still enough pilots willing to do it. When you consider the abysmal wages of F/O's in particular, it is not surprising that crewing are usually (not always) able to scrape together enough crews.
A ban on overtime would dramatically alter the balance of the game. Already sick leave is on the rise (winter, and crews becoming run down). If pilots refuse to work on their days off, then I feel the value of these professionals may be put into sharper focus. What is required is a request from the pilot representative body to get the ball rolling. I believe that all REX pilots would adhere to such a request, especially if it were for a limited time, (say 4 weeks) just to bring a certain amount of leverage to bear, and to demonstrate to the non believers that pilots no longer grow on trees!
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apache one of my suggestions is that you never get angry you just get even. Striking is just getting angry. Maybe our wage payers the traveling public need to be a little enlightened. Its ok for a plumber or what not to knock on your door and charge $300, and then think about how much he will charge for the job. That is acceptable? Unfortunately we can bang on here all we like but nothing will ever change because we are not a united group. United we will stand, divided we will fall and thats what is happening. I gave the feds about $900 last FY and what did I get for it? A pocket sized diary and a discount card for europcar. That is where our problem lies. Our negotiators for the new EBA are employed by LKH, and trained to fly the Saab 340 magnificently, not negotiate, that is where our problem lies. Management cancels EBA meetings that is where our problems are. I would be happy to contribute to an industrial negotiator, but sadly not every one would be prepared to do that. So we are not united, instead we would rather piss and moan and not put a little hard earned where our mouths are. Apache without getting nasty, personal, and turning the perception of the whole pilot group into a pack of assh@les what other options do we have. Yes the golden rule does state he who has the gold rules, we will never have enough.
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Krusty any ban on overtime would need to be well promulgated to all - pilots, FAs, crewing, management, the union, the media and the public - that this is indeed what you are doing. At the moment crew are being somewhat unpredictable in this regard so the 'good' (for your cause) that Pilot A is doing by not working overtime is undone by Pilot B who does work overtime. Pilot C throws a different spin on things by sometimes helping out and sometimes not. There is no consistency.
In a roundabout kind of way, the point I'm trying to make is that it's either all or nothing. Only a complete ban on overtime, from Date X to Date Y, that everyone is aware IS indeed an overtime ban and not just a case of 'that pilot's being difficult', has any chance of being noticed, let alone bringing around the change that you want.
In a roundabout kind of way, the point I'm trying to make is that it's either all or nothing. Only a complete ban on overtime, from Date X to Date Y, that everyone is aware IS indeed an overtime ban and not just a case of 'that pilot's being difficult', has any chance of being noticed, let alone bringing around the change that you want.
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I fail to understand this arguement on "overtime" relating only to days off. Coming in or not coming in on days off so as to increase the net benefit to oneself is not necessarily undermining the pilot group. Ultimately overtime needs to be paid for doing hours over a monthly quota, as well as sacricficing days off.
So to come in on ones days off, get paid extra is not the only problem... it is doing an excessive amount of flight ours in a calender month - say more than 65/month which equates to 60/roster of 28 days.
To me it is far worse to accept a roster which when converted to a full calender month equates to 90 hrs/month, than to alter your roster through casual days to suit your needs but ultimately do a more acceptable monthly total until such time as we are paid genuine overtime money.
To place a ban on excessive monthly flight hours is the real solution.
So to come in on ones days off, get paid extra is not the only problem... it is doing an excessive amount of flight ours in a calender month - say more than 65/month which equates to 60/roster of 28 days.
To me it is far worse to accept a roster which when converted to a full calender month equates to 90 hrs/month, than to alter your roster through casual days to suit your needs but ultimately do a more acceptable monthly total until such time as we are paid genuine overtime money.
To place a ban on excessive monthly flight hours is the real solution.
The problem is wethereyet, that under the REX EBA the only tangiable overtime is working on one's day off! If REX pilots place a ban on "excessive" monthly flight hours, where do you draw the line? And more importantly, how do you justify it when all parties have previously signed off on the current EBA! Whilst other perhaps more progressive workplace agreements have sought to limit a reasonable amount of flying hours (ie: 55-65 per month) as the benchmark for additions to salary, REX's EBA simply follows the legal Mins, or Max in this case CAO 48. Do you understand that arguement?
This has come about because of the ruthless advantage that sucessive managements have taken of the pilot group(s) over the previous years, (the Hazelton debarcle of '95, the collapse of Ansett, and even the uncertainty of the formation of REX itself). This pilot group have gone from having the best T&C's (Kendall/Ansett) to now probably having the worst amongst the regionals in Australia. The Chairman and his lackies have signalled loud and clear that they have no intention of redressing this shamefull state of affairs. So where does that leave the REXPC and the pilot group in general?
It's fine to rattle the sabre. But every battle is won before it's fought. The crewing issues at REX are now so dire that if pilots merely exercise their right of refusal to work on days off, you will see some serious disruption. Further schedule cuts will become inevitable, and maybe, just maybe they might start to listen. If they don't, well as always it will be the travelling public who will pay the price for REX management's failure to grasp the true nature of this situation.
This has come about because of the ruthless advantage that sucessive managements have taken of the pilot group(s) over the previous years, (the Hazelton debarcle of '95, the collapse of Ansett, and even the uncertainty of the formation of REX itself). This pilot group have gone from having the best T&C's (Kendall/Ansett) to now probably having the worst amongst the regionals in Australia. The Chairman and his lackies have signalled loud and clear that they have no intention of redressing this shamefull state of affairs. So where does that leave the REXPC and the pilot group in general?
It's fine to rattle the sabre. But every battle is won before it's fought. The crewing issues at REX are now so dire that if pilots merely exercise their right of refusal to work on days off, you will see some serious disruption. Further schedule cuts will become inevitable, and maybe, just maybe they might start to listen. If they don't, well as always it will be the travelling public who will pay the price for REX management's failure to grasp the true nature of this situation.
and would only serve to demonise the pilot group in the minds of the travelling public
Quote:
"It you run a clever industrial campaign you could get the public on your side. US regional airline pilots have run several campaigns over the years running such a line."
I agree Nev. Problem is I have yet to see such a clever, let alone sucessful campaign. Also, how sucessful have the struggles of the American Regional pilots been. From what I have seen their wages continue to be appallingly low. I am happy to stand corrected though.
"It you run a clever industrial campaign you could get the public on your side. US regional airline pilots have run several campaigns over the years running such a line."
I agree Nev. Problem is I have yet to see such a clever, let alone sucessful campaign. Also, how sucessful have the struggles of the American Regional pilots been. From what I have seen their wages continue to be appallingly low. I am happy to stand corrected though.
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With comments like these....
"...The faint hearted, the whiners and the whingers have no place in aviation, much less in Rex, ..."
...I am sure that the EBA negotations will go well, however, it seems ironic that the person who is whinging the most is the one who wrote this comment!!
"...The faint hearted, the whiners and the whingers have no place in aviation, much less in Rex, ..."
...I am sure that the EBA negotations will go well, however, it seems ironic that the person who is whinging the most is the one who wrote this comment!!
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Fatigue / lack of rest!!!
If the REX pilots continue to agree to work on RDO's, and one has a serious incident / accident and there is the slightest hint that fatigue or lack of rest is a causal factor, watch out for you will be hung out to dry!!!
Surely you have a para' in your P & P manual that states one must never turn up for work if you are fatigued or lacking sufficient rest.
Role on......
Surely you have a para' in your P & P manual that states one must never turn up for work if you are fatigued or lacking sufficient rest.
Role on......
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Krusty, I understand the situation completely - and am a little offended at the suggestion I might not. Working days off in a clever way can actually contribute to crewing problems, get my drift?
Nobody can come out loud and say everybody is to stop doing the 20 hours/month of FREE OVERTIME that is presently happening, since it is perfectly within the boundaries of our EBA to fly excessive hours without extra incentive. We must be more clever than to say it out loud, but rather create a culture where we as a group recognise we would be getting substantial incentives for these hours in most airlines, and to sensibly attend to the issue in a variety of ways.
Nobody can come out loud and say everybody is to stop doing the 20 hours/month of FREE OVERTIME that is presently happening, since it is perfectly within the boundaries of our EBA to fly excessive hours without extra incentive. We must be more clever than to say it out loud, but rather create a culture where we as a group recognise we would be getting substantial incentives for these hours in most airlines, and to sensibly attend to the issue in a variety of ways.