Life as a Second Officer at Qantas

[gotta_love_P28A]

1100 credit hours

sorry for a stupid question, but when you say credit hours-is that the same as flying hours for the log book? Or does a SO get no flying hours because he's not copilot?
Thanks guys

[fourgolds]

Ask Warren.

[gotta_love_P28A]

Ask Warren.

Err...ok another stupid question-and one i feel i should know the answer too
Who's Warren?

Cheers

[Back Seat Driver]

G L warrior,
'Credit Hours' are not the same as logbook hours.
Trips or 'Patterns' are awarded credit hours depending on how many days away, daytime flying or night flying, via a formula.
An eight week Roster ('pattern line' )of flying will usually be in the vicinity of 160 - 175 'credit' hours to earn your pay.
CAO flight time limitations apply to Qf Longhaul. ie. 900 hours per year max.

Warren - is a QF specific joke. An urban myth and a fallacy started by a scorned Female FA to harm the reputation of a former boyfriend techie.

[fourgolds]

Is that you Warren ?

[gotta_love_P28A]

Thanks BSD, good to know you do get some flying hours as SO, all you hear on here is you carry the captains bag and make the coffee
I didn't spend thousands and thousands of hard earned $$$ to do that lol

[Back Seat Driver]

Warrior,
I have never seen an S/O treated in such a way. More often than not, at flight planning one of the S/O's will be asked if he/she would like to 'Have a go' with the plan,- that is run through and check the flt plan, ask the other crew members (inclding Capt & F/O) to read through and brief notams etc and make an assessment on the fuel order. If the Captain and other crew agree they will 'run' with it or discuss any differences of opinion. On arrival at the aircraft that S/O would have a large input into the management of the entire sector, and when 'in the seat' would usually be the PF. You don't get to be in the seat below 10k but other than that you are treated as 'the man'.
S/O's are fully integrated, Co-Pilot rated and respected members of the crew. Hope to see you sitting beside one day. Good Luck.
You log all the hours, and half of that goes towards flying experience and all of it goes to your Grand Total.

[gotta_love_P28A]

Thanks mate, that is the single most useful post i have seen on this forum! Makes me want to aim at the airlines again!
Now back to the AGK...and then i'll see you soon!!!!

[Keg]

After all, isn't a keg something that holds a lot of beer?

Normally 'yes' but the rule doesn't apply to this particular Keg. Unfortunately I'm able to hold very little beer- or anything else made of alcohol unfortunately!

BSD's description of the S/O is broadly true and works for the high quality crews. Regrettably there are some crews that can't/won't work in this manner. They are in the minority.

[Muff Hunter]

Back seat drivel,

that must have been a dream you had whilst in crew rest...."you the man"..........i think far from it...!!!!!!

[Back Seat Driver]

Evening Muff,
I'm so upset, that you disagree.... not.
Out of interest I've had a look at your posts via the search function to see how you add value to prune discussions. What did I find? Nothing but negativity, glib one line assertions, mostly erroneous and a sense of inflated ego. I'm guessing you're a J* 320 F/O, though I may be wrong.
Well Whoopdie F*cken Doo. Young Fella's like G L P28A will bring a lot more to our job than you are ever likely to achieve. Perhaps it's time to retire the Muff handle and rejoin under a different name D!ckhead.

[Muff Hunter]

Did you learn such language on your cadet course??

Seems to me that i've hit a raw nerve!!

[Green gorilla]

Never been a second officer but had a mate who was one for Q he is now a FO on a 767 he could not wait to be upgraded.

[Poto]

Plenty of 76 F/O's would love to get back into the S/O seat at the moment

[Datum]

Surprising number of Second Officers wish to leave Qantas and aviation in general at the moment as well!..

[yeoman]

Could you tell us why?

There are a couple of us Europeans having a bit of a root around the Oz employment market at the moment so any info would be gratefully received.

I understand that AIPA are less than impressed with the prospect of foreign pilots being hired which is a fair one - we had a similar view in the UK 10 odd years ago.

With this 457 visa business, presumably the airline in question sponsors that and should the market change or the union make its views stick then a foreign pilot could see that sponsorship disappear. You will have to forgive me if I'm stepping on toes here, it is a genuine request for opinions from a bloke who has had enough of the UK, loves Australia and has no trade outside flying aeroplanes!

So everybody joins QF as an SO, what about other operators? Who are looking to recruit from abroad and are there any Direct Entry Commands - again, sorry if that offends but I have no idea of experience levels about the place.

Thanks for the pay info Keg, any ideas on the screw for other operators?

[yeoman]

Direct Anywhere

Great stuff, thanks. As for having a go, no problem there. I just need the facts and if they are unpleasant it doesn't make them less of a fact!

Thanks again. Any more views out there?

[OZBorn]

Just to get the thread back on line again, the truth of the matter is self discipline. If you want to be a second officer and languish you can, if you want to see it as a stepping stone for progression (albeit a long and drawn out one at times) you can, or if you want to use it as a vehicle to support another interest outside of Qantas you can. Qantas is a means to an end. For some people S/O is the end. There are some seriously senior guys as S/O's loving life as they can pick and choose any trip they want to fit in with the rest of their lifestyle. Personally, I couldn't bear the thought of sitting on the F/D without a window for any longer than required but that's me. The overriding factor in all of this comes down to seniorority. It creates no incentive to excel beyond what is required and you can quickly fall into the 51% syndrome. S/O takes all types and in Q you will meet all the types. It pays however to stick to your ideals and get some perspective every once and a while to avoid becoming the bitter and twisted S/O (read: passenger) that unfortunately some become. To any wanting to become an S/O, look past the sarcasm that pervades much of this site and you can find a job that is rewarding and enjoyable and pays well. Like any job there will be aspects that will s#!t you no end but overall it's a pretty good gig.

[Fire_cracker]

Hired by Qantas and reply to Mailman

I just received my letter of "Intent to Employ" from Qantas and we are thrilled! My background includes flying a Turbine Otter on Amhibs in Broome, WA, as well as owning my own Super Cub for a few years. I have loads of G.A. experience and at 35, I have been flying for 20 years, beginning training solely on my own dime - my old man thought I was nuts as a young girl going into aviation on my own. My most recent experience has been 9 years active in the Airlines - regional and United, hired in Feb 2000.

At United I was hired in 2000, furloughed in 2003, re-hired in 2006, and now soon to be furloughed again in 2009.

Mail-Man has it wrong. At all of my jobs, The Qantas interview has been by far the most difficult. Bush flying actually requires little skill and a lot of bravery to get hired - i.e. my last employer had 2 pilots die under his watch. So it's the skill that keeps you alive, not hired.

Qantas is more selective than that, and they test you at the highest level all-around. I truly believe they are one of the greatest airlines in the world. I read Keg's posts a lot so I suspect he'll give me a hard time, but I've been shy to post until now so I'm hoping for a Congrats.

My questions:
How accurate are the dates on the "Intent to Employ" letter dates and the actual dates?

Are the fuel price increases going to affect hiring - i.e. Is my letter serious?

Will the Engineer Strike affect hiring - i.e. Is my letter serious?

B747 is supposed to be better pay than A330, is that true? But that is based on working conditions, correct? I still think I'd prefer the A330 to be with my family, am I wrong?

I have more questions, but I'm shy to post as I've seen the responses! PM is a good thing.

[Keg]

Fire cracker. Congrats on the letter. To address your questions:

How accurate are the dates on the "Intent to Employ" letter dates and the actual dates?

They were pretty accurate when they sent them. Things can change and you allude to some of the potential issues facing the industry in your other questions. At this stage and on this date though, it should be pretty solid.

Are the fuel price increases going to affect hiring - i.e. Is my letter serious?

At current levels, no. If they keep going up then that answer is null and void- as are a lot of issues. QF still have a massive training schedule over the next 12 months and there has been no modification to that program since the supposed cut backs have been announced. We still have five or six A380s to turn up over the next 12 months, a few A330s, a few 738s, etc.

Will the Engineer Strike affect hiring - i.e. Is my letter serious?

No, the engineer industrial action won't have an affect on your hiring unless things change drastically- IE the ALAEA step up the action, etc.

B747 is supposed to be better pay than A330, is that true? But that is based on working conditions, correct? I still think I'd prefer the A330 to be with my family, am I wrong?

If you tell QF that you have a preference for the A330 the odds are you'll get it. That said, our EBA is supposedly looking at bringing in fleet pay over the next few years so the only difference in pay between the fleets will be overtime. The 744 will still do more of that so they'll still be paid more (as will the A380). Both 744 and A330 drivers tend to have the same number of days off. The difference is in the length of trips away- and by default, the length of time off at home. A330 will have you home with your family after less time away.

I have more questions, but I'm shy to post as I've seen the responses! PM is a good thing.

Don't stress too much about it. It's pretty easy to sort the wheat from the chaff.