2 crew 727?
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2 crew 727?
I just met someone who said they have flown a 2 crew 727. He said when the hush kits were put on the FE went with the old engines.
does anyone have a photo of what the flight deck would look like?
does anyone have a photo of what the flight deck would look like?
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2 Crew B727
Maybe you friend has been smoking something other than tobacco, or maybe he is just a "bean counter" who wants to fast track the reduction in crewing on everything.
Look here
http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/55...scription.html
and here
http://www.wipo.int/pctdb/en/wo.jsp?...4&DISPLAY=DESC
This isnt to say that it was ever done, but it was certainly looked at.
http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/55...scription.html
and here
http://www.wipo.int/pctdb/en/wo.jsp?...4&DISPLAY=DESC
This isnt to say that it was ever done, but it was certainly looked at.
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3 to 2 conversions
Existing STC’d
DC-10 to MD-10 (customer)
L188 (Atlantic Airways)
Airbus went from 3 to 2 with the change over from the A300B4 to A300-600/A310 but I believe that there were some B4s delivered to Garuda that were 2 crew?
The 737 was meant to be 3 crew and for a while United operated that way.
Ansett 767s were delivered 3 crew and operated that way for most of their lives until CASA approved a mod. (Which was one of the main sticking points in AN selling the assets as flyable….. no other authority wanted to approve the mod, I am lead to believe)
No 727's so your buddy was talking out of his butt!
DC-10 to MD-10 (customer)
L188 (Atlantic Airways)
Airbus went from 3 to 2 with the change over from the A300B4 to A300-600/A310 but I believe that there were some B4s delivered to Garuda that were 2 crew?
The 737 was meant to be 3 crew and for a while United operated that way.
Ansett 767s were delivered 3 crew and operated that way for most of their lives until CASA approved a mod. (Which was one of the main sticking points in AN selling the assets as flyable….. no other authority wanted to approve the mod, I am lead to believe)
No 727's so your buddy was talking out of his butt!
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ok, thanks for that,
doesnt seem to make sense though, if you were going to lie about flying a 727 thats fine, but why make up the crew numbers?
seems abit strange.
He flew them in the late 80s with JAT
doesnt seem to make sense though, if you were going to lie about flying a 727 thats fine, but why make up the crew numbers?
seems abit strange.
He flew them in the late 80s with JAT
Whispering "T" Jet
TIM your mate is pulling your toggle. Next time you see him, ask him to take some photos of the cockpit for us all to see.
Hoggy, the Ansett 767s were ordered from Boeing in the three crew configuration. The 767 was only ever designed for two crew operation. The Ansett A320s were almost 3 crew but Airbus couldn't fit another operational seat in the cockpit.
Abeles loved his flight engineers, he gave them all jobs for life. Ah, they were the days!
Hoggy, the Ansett 767s were ordered from Boeing in the three crew configuration. The 767 was only ever designed for two crew operation. The Ansett A320s were almost 3 crew but Airbus couldn't fit another operational seat in the cockpit.
Abeles loved his flight engineers, he gave them all jobs for life. Ah, they were the days!
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It is or was possible to convert it from 3 man to 2 man crew but the costs were much higher than just pay a FE. Some companies did it, I know for a fact that Nationwide, SA hade the modification done. Cockpit doens't change much does an empty seat for a possible oberserver. <-- me
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Abeles loved his F/E's
3 Holer, say G'day to one of the finest if you fly with him (JR), lucky bugger was still strapping a 3 holer to his backside until recently and may still be.
3 Holer............
I reckon you're right about TIM's mate.
Having said that, a 2-man version of the B727 was on the drawing board in the 90's. In 1995 Aeroworks and Gull Electronic Systems offered a conversion for a 2-man B727 cockpit, eliminating the F/E position. The "DuoDeck" conversion was reportedly "largely based on the Boeing 737-200 cockpit, and Aeroworks claimed that the 2-man cockpit modification would save B727 operators $350,000-$650,000 an aircraft annually in labour and support costs.
That would have been a pretty sizeable saving in terms of 90's $$$s.
The company proposed that DuoDeck would be installed during a scheduled C-check.
I don't know if any of the "DuoDeck" 2-man conversions were ever actually completed, but I can remember seeing a photograph of the mock-up of a 'DuoDeck" cockpit a long time ago!
Re the Ansett 767s..............I seem to recall that they were actually built as 2-man cockpit aircraft, then virtually rolled straight back into the Boeing factory where the 2-man cockpit was removed and the special Ansett 3-man cockpit was installed!
VERY expensive aircraft doing it that way! And it cost a hell of lot to reconvert them back to 2-man versions too!
I reckon you're right about TIM's mate.
Having said that, a 2-man version of the B727 was on the drawing board in the 90's. In 1995 Aeroworks and Gull Electronic Systems offered a conversion for a 2-man B727 cockpit, eliminating the F/E position. The "DuoDeck" conversion was reportedly "largely based on the Boeing 737-200 cockpit, and Aeroworks claimed that the 2-man cockpit modification would save B727 operators $350,000-$650,000 an aircraft annually in labour and support costs.
That would have been a pretty sizeable saving in terms of 90's $$$s.
The company proposed that DuoDeck would be installed during a scheduled C-check.
I don't know if any of the "DuoDeck" 2-man conversions were ever actually completed, but I can remember seeing a photograph of the mock-up of a 'DuoDeck" cockpit a long time ago!
Re the Ansett 767s..............I seem to recall that they were actually built as 2-man cockpit aircraft, then virtually rolled straight back into the Boeing factory where the 2-man cockpit was removed and the special Ansett 3-man cockpit was installed!
VERY expensive aircraft doing it that way! And it cost a hell of lot to reconvert them back to 2-man versions too!
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I have seen the original B767 sales brochures. The aircraft was marketed as a 3 man aircraft. Boeing went to 2 man, after Ansett had signed the order.Ansett was a very early customer if not the lead customer.
I think at least one Asian carrier (JAL??)operated the B767 as a 3 man aircraft as I remember seeing an F/E in NRT as part of a B767 crew.
The engineer was removed in early production aircraft when the A300-600 was certified. The mod to remove the F/Es station was not much as everthing was plug in. The F/E side facing panel had little on it and the F/E's duties were not complex.
In regards to the 2 man B727, a number of options were offered for the R/R conversion. As far as I know the only R/R conversions were by and for UPS and 1 executive aircraft that was for many years based in Oz but with a Bermuda rego. The UPS owned aircraft maintained their 3 man flight deck and about 100 B727 100s were converted by them. As a result they meet all the stage 3+ noise restrictions. Indeed the EEC 3+ noise standards were tailored around them.
I suspect that the OZ based aircraft did indeed have a 2 man cockpit. It definitely had an EFIS set up after the R/R conversion by UPS.
Interestingly the Fedex MD10 conversion has a 2 man cockpit
Wunwing
I think at least one Asian carrier (JAL??)operated the B767 as a 3 man aircraft as I remember seeing an F/E in NRT as part of a B767 crew.
The engineer was removed in early production aircraft when the A300-600 was certified. The mod to remove the F/Es station was not much as everthing was plug in. The F/E side facing panel had little on it and the F/E's duties were not complex.
In regards to the 2 man B727, a number of options were offered for the R/R conversion. As far as I know the only R/R conversions were by and for UPS and 1 executive aircraft that was for many years based in Oz but with a Bermuda rego. The UPS owned aircraft maintained their 3 man flight deck and about 100 B727 100s were converted by them. As a result they meet all the stage 3+ noise restrictions. Indeed the EEC 3+ noise standards were tailored around them.
I suspect that the OZ based aircraft did indeed have a 2 man cockpit. It definitely had an EFIS set up after the R/R conversion by UPS.
Interestingly the Fedex MD10 conversion has a 2 man cockpit
Wunwing
There have been various convertions done to 727s which have included converting them to two crew.
I believe the former Westfield 727 had such a convertion, which included more fuel, replacing the JT9s with Tays and winglets, so don't be so quick to assume that this guy is bulls1tt1ng.
Ansett was indeed a launch customer for the 767. I believe our first one, RMD, was serial number 5.
The 767 was designed, and the first few were being built, as three crew aeroplanes. A Presidential taskforce concluded the EFIS equipped aircraft only needed two crew, and the aircraft was modded.
Our first two, RMD and RME were being built at the time, so it was easy enough to convert them back to three crew.
When the operation went back to two crew, it was a simple matter for RMF,G and H as they were two-to-three crew convertions, but took more work for DandE as they had been built from the start as three crewers.
I believe the former Westfield 727 had such a convertion, which included more fuel, replacing the JT9s with Tays and winglets, so don't be so quick to assume that this guy is bulls1tt1ng.
Ansett was indeed a launch customer for the 767. I believe our first one, RMD, was serial number 5.
The 767 was designed, and the first few were being built, as three crew aeroplanes. A Presidential taskforce concluded the EFIS equipped aircraft only needed two crew, and the aircraft was modded.
Our first two, RMD and RME were being built at the time, so it was easy enough to convert them back to three crew.
When the operation went back to two crew, it was a simple matter for RMF,G and H as they were two-to-three crew convertions, but took more work for DandE as they had been built from the start as three crewers.
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Stop Speculating.
Here are two links
http://www.airliners.net/photo/Unite...ext_id=0855894
http://www.airliners.net/photo/Unite...ext_id=0327436
/0855894&tbl=COCKPIT&photo_nr=2&prev_id=0857747&next_id=0327436)
These are of the DeeHoward 727QF conversion, N727WF was exactly the same.
There are no "STC'd" 3 to 2 crew for the three holer, prove me wrong by showing me the STC.
http://www.airliners.net/photo/Unite...ext_id=0855894
http://www.airliners.net/photo/Unite...ext_id=0327436
These are of the DeeHoward 727QF conversion, N727WF was exactly the same.
There are no "STC'd" 3 to 2 crew for the three holer, prove me wrong by showing me the STC.
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A little off topic, but:
AAE will cease operations of their last 727 on 30 June.
Will be a sad day as the best looking aircraft yet built, will no longer be seen in Australian skies.
AAE will cease operations of their last 727 on 30 June.
Will be a sad day as the best looking aircraft yet built, will no longer be seen in Australian skies.
Whispering "T" Jet
Old fella will do. Jack is still as fit as a buck rat and I flew with him only last week! Top man on teams and an excellent poker machine player 
flyforfun - you'll still see the Heavy Lift 727s around for a while yet !
flyforfun - you'll still see the Heavy Lift 727s around for a while yet !
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Heavy Lift
and that Belfast..
I found a youtube viedo of a JAT 727 doing an approach.
3 crew, I think there were even 4 or 5 people up front, ( 3 working ) and 1 smoking... yep the Capt have a few drags
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwqNb63aznM
I found a youtube viedo of a JAT 727 doing an approach.
3 crew, I think there were even 4 or 5 people up front, ( 3 working ) and 1 smoking... yep the Capt have a few drags
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwqNb63aznM
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