Has the Metro had its Day in Oz?
And....
After flying all night they then came home and washed the aircraft so that it was in pristine condition, and all for a wage of 2/6 a week.
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Again, it aint the machine!
The Metro carries more pax & freight than other said aircraft with worse records. And those aircraft are not in the same category.... This thread is about the Metro and it's operation. How, by who and maybe even when. Let's not compare apples with oranges. (Although, sometimes it is apt).
The systems are not bad. As in one of my previous posts regarding the electrical system, know the (ANY!) system to know how to competantly trouble shoot and best utilise it.
So in my opinion the many other factors raised that exist behind the Metro's use need to be scutinised, especially in view of the roll it fills in Oz.
Drink driving yourself home does not make you safe. You got lucky.
Do not confuse luck with safe.
The systems are not bad. As in one of my previous posts regarding the electrical system, know the (ANY!) system to know how to competantly trouble shoot and best utilise it.
So in my opinion the many other factors raised that exist behind the Metro's use need to be scutinised, especially in view of the roll it fills in Oz.
Drink driving yourself home does not make you safe. You got lucky.
Do not confuse luck with safe.
Silly Old Git
Same mob different aircraft
Doing pax shuttles to beautiful Kangaroo Is in a 310
Arrives in circuit area ...whoops de wheels is a no show item after selecting DOWN
hmmm contacts company on VHF....Oh yes thats been playing up for a while now just keep selecting and it will fix itself up......oh ..oh.. and by the way leave them down for your return
lo and behold the gear finally goes green and we land
Fill up with pax and off we go back to ADL wheels down
On arrival
"You got about another 4 trips just leave the wheels down"
OK after all this have a look under the 310
F@RK ME !
Theres a gear door MISSING
Tells CP I never went to fast I didnt think...
He says "Nah what sorta DI did you do this morning, that doors been missing for the last 3 years"
Doing pax shuttles to beautiful Kangaroo Is in a 310
Arrives in circuit area ...whoops de wheels is a no show item after selecting DOWN
hmmm contacts company on VHF....Oh yes thats been playing up for a while now just keep selecting and it will fix itself up......oh ..oh.. and by the way leave them down for your returnlo and behold the gear finally goes green and we land
Fill up with pax and off we go back to ADL wheels down
On arrival
"You got about another 4 trips just leave the wheels down"
OK after all this have a look under the 310
F@RK ME !
Theres a gear door MISSING
Tells CP I never went to fast I didnt think...
He says "Nah what sorta DI did you do this morning, that doors been missing for the last 3 years"
Silly Old Git
Same company but now not working for them....
Absolutely pissing rain at POrt Agutter huge puddle on taxi way joining the runway
Me thinks well I not gonna tax thru that
STAND BACK ! Macho CP of before mentioned mob attacks puddle in PA 31 full of punters
PA 31 hits puddle at speed , nosewheel and bulkhead collapse under floor of aircraft
Passengers all looking out windows
Absolutely pissing rain at POrt Agutter huge puddle on taxi way joining the runway
Me thinks well I not gonna tax thru that
STAND BACK ! Macho CP of before mentioned mob attacks puddle in PA 31 full of punters
PA 31 hits puddle at speed , nosewheel and bulkhead collapse under floor of aircraft
Passengers all looking out windows
Metro ground schools range from one day to seven days.
The one I did lasted seven days, and I found one needed to do plenty of study after hours to keep on the ball.
The electrical system was no drama, if you were taken through the system thoroughly and explained the basics and draw the diagram each time.
Dunno how the ground school could be compressed into a day and still be CASA approved!!
For a lot of people the Metro was their first turbine aircraft, first pressurised aircraft, first multi-crew aircraft, first aircraft above 5700kgs, probably first time they had flown above 10,000', first time they had seen a weather radar, first airline job and fisrt gig flying from the Right hand seat.
Lots to learn in the ground school.
The one I did lasted seven days, and I found one needed to do plenty of study after hours to keep on the ball.
The electrical system was no drama, if you were taken through the system thoroughly and explained the basics and draw the diagram each time.
Dunno how the ground school could be compressed into a day and still be CASA approved!!
For a lot of people the Metro was their first turbine aircraft, first pressurised aircraft, first multi-crew aircraft, first aircraft above 5700kgs, probably first time they had flown above 10,000', first time they had seen a weather radar, first airline job and fisrt gig flying from the Right hand seat.
Lots to learn in the ground school.
OK, back to the Metro's.
I have never flown one, never really wanted to.(too damn noisy...)
I have been watching this thread with interest though. Somebody mentioned incorrect aft loading could cause the fuselage bend so you can not close rear cargo door( What the...?????).
Can someone more experienced on type tell me what would happen if the aircraft was loaded slightly outside forward CofG and what effect would that have if sudden loss of one engine on climb out? Which one is the critical engine and how would one handle the situation single handed in IMC? Maybe this would shed some light to what happened to the one lost out of Sydney recently.(just a hint)
I have never flown one, never really wanted to.(too damn noisy...)
I have been watching this thread with interest though. Somebody mentioned incorrect aft loading could cause the fuselage bend so you can not close rear cargo door( What the...?????).
Can someone more experienced on type tell me what would happen if the aircraft was loaded slightly outside forward CofG and what effect would that have if sudden loss of one engine on climb out? Which one is the critical engine and how would one handle the situation single handed in IMC? Maybe this would shed some light to what happened to the one lost out of Sydney recently.(just a hint)
and the port engine couldnt be throttled back more than halfway on approach or it would have shaken out of its mounting
Used that way night after night on ADL -MEL run
Used that way night after night on ADL -MEL run
You need to have both doors closed to taxi, structural requirement. Yes the fuselage can bend slightly so that you can't lock the rear door, usually solved by getting a loader to get underneath and try to lift up the door area.
If heavily loaded with general freight, almost impossible to go out of foward c of g. Not too hard to go out of rear c of g with bulky freight where the aircraft is packed front to back, floor to ceiling. Then it's very twitchy on the elevator, flew one like that one night very uncomfortable two hours. Yes we had done a loadsheet but it soon became obvious the load plan we had been given was incorrect.
Remember this is an 6.8 ton turboprop which requires a stick shaker AND a stick pusher. Tells you something about the stall characteristics
If heavily loaded with general freight, almost impossible to go out of foward c of g. Not too hard to go out of rear c of g with bulky freight where the aircraft is packed front to back, floor to ceiling. Then it's very twitchy on the elevator, flew one like that one night very uncomfortable two hours. Yes we had done a loadsheet but it soon became obvious the load plan we had been given was incorrect.
Remember this is an 6.8 ton turboprop which requires a stick shaker AND a stick pusher. Tells you something about the stall characteristics
Silly Old Git
Centaurus
You dont know what you missed mate...
One outfit I had the misfortune to work a week for didnt have the MR in the A/c but instead had the beaut idea of putting a notebook onboard for the pilots to scribble in.
The sight of the CP running around with a fistful of MR's trying to replace them on an unexpected ramp check was priceless
You dont know what you missed mate...
Of course you snagged it in the maintenance release every time it happened - didn't you, didn't you?
The sight of the CP running around with a fistful of MR's trying to replace them on an unexpected ramp check was priceless
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The Metro is a great aircraft and does its job in the industry very well - carrying 2.4 tonnes of freight burning 600lbs/hr at 255ktas.
The trouble is that it is not getting any younger and there seems to be no easy or direct replacement. The younger passenger metro 23's getting around (i.e. the ones in the west with blue tails, or the ex Rex ones) are still in reasonably good nick, but the 35000hr freighters are looking very sad indeed last time I strapped in. I've come across cracked main wing spars, landing gear that snaps on taxi, avionics that don't work and hydraulics that self-flush after each landing... Now, I'm not having a go at maintenance as I've spoken to the blokes at the coal face and they say they are doing all they can, I've even had them in the right hand seat in flight shaking their heads looking at the engine instruments...
Look after the plane and it should look after you, know your systems, do thorough pre-flights, write up snags and trends so the ginger beers have some idea how the old girl is going. And here endeth the sermon...
The trouble is that it is not getting any younger and there seems to be no easy or direct replacement. The younger passenger metro 23's getting around (i.e. the ones in the west with blue tails, or the ex Rex ones) are still in reasonably good nick, but the 35000hr freighters are looking very sad indeed last time I strapped in. I've come across cracked main wing spars, landing gear that snaps on taxi, avionics that don't work and hydraulics that self-flush after each landing... Now, I'm not having a go at maintenance as I've spoken to the blokes at the coal face and they say they are doing all they can, I've even had them in the right hand seat in flight shaking their heads looking at the engine instruments...
Look after the plane and it should look after you, know your systems, do thorough pre-flights, write up snags and trends so the ginger beers have some idea how the old girl is going. And here endeth the sermon...
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I hears ya, Metro Man...
If heavily loaded with general freight, almost impossible to go out of foward c of g. Not too hard to go out of rear c of g with bulky freight where the aircraft is packed front to back, floor to ceiling. Then it's very twitchy on the elevator, flew one like that one night very uncomfortable two hours. Yes we had done a loadsheet but it soon became obvious the load plan we had been given was incorrect.
In all fairness, I suppose they missed the nose oleo being fully extended and the tail stand starting to bend
Having said that, the main client whose freight we shifted did make the effort to adjust the freight whenever the pilot was unhappy with the way the loading was going - and the guy who did the load control for Gerry's newspaper runs had a system that placed sufficient bundles in all the right places to keep the aeroplane within Cof G limits - but generally, load control and a general lack of a solid, consistently accurate loading system was something to contend with on a regular basis, especially at 'out ports' .
I am not saying this was the cases in the recent accident - but it would not surprise me if it was a contributing factor.
Remember this is an 6.8 ton turboprop which requires a stick shaker AND a stick pusher. Tells you something about the stall characteristics
P.S I'm surprised no one has brought up fuel leaks, sorry, seeps.
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Rojer R.....you are 100% right If all those things you mention actaully happen. The fact is THEY DON'T.
That is the point of this thread.
As in previous posts, I have flown some piles of cr@p and also some beautifully maintained Metros. The difference? The boss and the standards set and expected. Some standards are to get there at any cost & don't write up a goddam thing! Regulary bust F&D's, cut corners, overload.... Phone it in instead and we might do something. But then you're labelled a trouble maker and not a company man. Others give you a rear end kicking if you do not write something up, clean the cabin, cross the seatbelts....
Loading? As touched on also earlier, not a problem "IF" done properly. Multi sector runs where freight is simply being moved from bays 5, then 4, 3, etc leaving a couple of hundred kgs only in 1 & 2 aint pretty. Ask the untrained loaders to move freight aft or redo the distribution, yeah, good luck. So, do it yourself.
SMS777: As per any aircraft loaded outside the fwd (or aft) limit results in single engine perf not "guaranteed". Now with the Metro often being W.A.T. limited, this is not a pretty picture. As to technique, same as many aircraft. Know how and why, just like any system or method of operation. Take away that requirement of being properly loaded and you are going in one direction only, especially MTOW in hot & high regions.
I'll state it again. It is not the machine. It is the factors behind its use and the CASA's attitude of placing their head in the sand.
That is the point of this thread.
As in previous posts, I have flown some piles of cr@p and also some beautifully maintained Metros. The difference? The boss and the standards set and expected. Some standards are to get there at any cost & don't write up a goddam thing! Regulary bust F&D's, cut corners, overload.... Phone it in instead and we might do something. But then you're labelled a trouble maker and not a company man. Others give you a rear end kicking if you do not write something up, clean the cabin, cross the seatbelts....
Loading? As touched on also earlier, not a problem "IF" done properly. Multi sector runs where freight is simply being moved from bays 5, then 4, 3, etc leaving a couple of hundred kgs only in 1 & 2 aint pretty. Ask the untrained loaders to move freight aft or redo the distribution, yeah, good luck. So, do it yourself.
SMS777: As per any aircraft loaded outside the fwd (or aft) limit results in single engine perf not "guaranteed". Now with the Metro often being W.A.T. limited, this is not a pretty picture. As to technique, same as many aircraft. Know how and why, just like any system or method of operation. Take away that requirement of being properly loaded and you are going in one direction only, especially MTOW in hot & high regions.
I'll state it again. It is not the machine. It is the factors behind its use and the CASA's attitude of placing their head in the sand.
Last edited by TopTup; 22nd Apr 2008 at 08:00.
Would you put your faith in some unskilled rock ape loading your aircraft?
The old TNT Tonne is still a done thing?
Casa they will get around to it one day, next week or someday, but then again its night freight and its night time so that poses lots of problem getting people out to do ramp checks etc, so we will just turn a blind eye after all their is pilot shortage at the moment. Plus if something does happen then that very capable man Mr Gibson will have a prepared speech for the media using lots of words like systematic breakdown of standard operating procedures caused this resultant accident.
The old TNT Tonne is still a done thing?
Casa they will get around to it one day, next week or someday, but then again its night freight and its night time so that poses lots of problem getting people out to do ramp checks etc, so we will just turn a blind eye after all their is pilot shortage at the moment. Plus if something does happen then that very capable man Mr Gibson will have a prepared speech for the media using lots of words like systematic breakdown of standard operating procedures caused this resultant accident.
