Which Idiot designed the Level 4 English Test.
Which Idiot designed the Level 4 English Test.
Feedback from the students today was that a lot of the material in the testing session was airline specific, as well as symbols and pictures that unfamiliar and irelevent. These students are barely past GFPT and they're being asked about airline ops situations, TCAS etc. They are being asked questions on topics we havent taught them yet.
Christ, native english speaking student pilots wouldnt be able to make heads or tails of this test letalone foreign speakers.
Bloody walleys.
Christ, native english speaking student pilots wouldnt be able to make heads or tails of this test letalone foreign speakers.
Bloody walleys.
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Then those students are obviously not on a satisfactory level to fly here as the test is not designed to ask any questions related to your flying knowlegde, at any level or subject at that.It is rather a english exam based around aviation topics which to any fairly english educated person would only be a matter of interpreting the question as the answers are all right there.Where as to a not so english capable indiviual it would seem like an aviation trivia.Now please get you facts straight before posting such a ridiculous comment.
qfskip
qfskip
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So QF Skip are acronyms english language or aviation colloquial specific knowledge without any connection to a language ??
Is TCAS the same in Russian, Japanese, Chinese and Portugese ???
Is TCAS the same in Russian, Japanese, Chinese and Portugese ???
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Couldn't agree with you more there qfskip. Once upon a time this test wasn't required 'cause there where few poor English speaking foreigners learning to fly in this country but now it's a whole new beast this flying training game. The world has certaintly shrunk meaning that flying training isn't kept within any ones countries shores. Therefore we hear a lot of Asian students for Eg. that are making a real mess of R/T on the airways & creating unnecessary dangers, that's just one part of the reason/s for such a test. The test was designed for good reason & from pressures within the aviation sector itself to have this ridiculous situation recitified so lets not 'shoot' those that are trying to be responsible here for making our skies safer. It's my opinion that we make the test harder that way only the best will learn to fly in my airspace where my life is bloody important just as it is for ALL of us!
Opinions guys opinions that's all any of this is.
CW
Opinions guys opinions that's all any of this is.
CW
an' nat.
Bottums Up
Stationair8
Absolutely positive. I considered such spelling but figured if I used it, I'd get no end of grief from youse *****ers.
G'day Bendo,
How're Mrs Bendo and the bendits?
Absolutely positive. I considered such spelling but figured if I used it, I'd get no end of grief from youse *****ers.
G'day Bendo,
How're Mrs Bendo and the bendits?
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Level 4, 5 or 6
Level 4 and 5 can only be assessed by "Expert speach centres" or an approved organisation using international standard testing. I belive in Aust. there are three approved testing centres for level 4 and 5. Two are universities and the other is a testing provider.
Level 6, on the other hand can be assessed by an ATO, CASA FOI's and some other approved people. If the ATO can't declare them a level 6, then they have to go off to see one of the testing organisations for level 4 or 5.
(Just to claify level 6 is the highest standard, which reduces to level 1. Level 4,5 and 6 are the only levels approved for aviation standard. Once assessed as level 6 you don't need to be tested again where as a level 4 or 5 will be tested at regular intervals.)
Even if the candidate dosn't know what a TCAS is, they should be able to comprened the question and reply to the examiner thereby showing thier english standard.
" Hello Joe Blow, native of Penrith Aust. can you tell me about TCAS"
"Well, umm, I have heard about TCAS, but I don't know how it works or what it does" (PASS)
"Hello Slarty Bardfast, or Magrathea, can you tell me about TCAS"
" Arrh, ummm, I runch time, now, and me do Glaciers" (In context, maybe NOT a PASS)
The "Expert level 6" english standard is an ICAO desigantion and standard. Obviously it tests a candidates ability to converse in aviation specific language and does put some emphasis on "Aviation Jargon"
(after all many overseas pilots only english is what you hear over the radio)
But, in order to assess the candidates overall english standard the ATO's are encouraged to ask some general questions, and give some non standard senarios as well.
So to answer the question, those idiots would be 1. ICAO, 2. Uni Profesors, and language experts.
But any new system is going to need quality feedback to ensure it meets the required objectives. I am sure you wrote this post after sending your comments off to the person/organisation that did the testing??
More info availabe at the CASA website
richo
Level 6, on the other hand can be assessed by an ATO, CASA FOI's and some other approved people. If the ATO can't declare them a level 6, then they have to go off to see one of the testing organisations for level 4 or 5.
(Just to claify level 6 is the highest standard, which reduces to level 1. Level 4,5 and 6 are the only levels approved for aviation standard. Once assessed as level 6 you don't need to be tested again where as a level 4 or 5 will be tested at regular intervals.)
Even if the candidate dosn't know what a TCAS is, they should be able to comprened the question and reply to the examiner thereby showing thier english standard.
" Hello Joe Blow, native of Penrith Aust. can you tell me about TCAS"
"Well, umm, I have heard about TCAS, but I don't know how it works or what it does" (PASS)
"Hello Slarty Bardfast, or Magrathea, can you tell me about TCAS"
" Arrh, ummm, I runch time, now, and me do Glaciers" (In context, maybe NOT a PASS)
The "Expert level 6" english standard is an ICAO desigantion and standard. Obviously it tests a candidates ability to converse in aviation specific language and does put some emphasis on "Aviation Jargon"
(after all many overseas pilots only english is what you hear over the radio)
But, in order to assess the candidates overall english standard the ATO's are encouraged to ask some general questions, and give some non standard senarios as well.
So to answer the question, those idiots would be 1. ICAO, 2. Uni Profesors, and language experts.
But any new system is going to need quality feedback to ensure it meets the required objectives. I am sure you wrote this post after sending your comments off to the person/organisation that did the testing??
More info availabe at the CASA website
richo
Just a quick question (which is a side issue to this thread). Is it true that all Australian Operators who carry out international ops regardless of frequency, parts of the world etc must ensure that their flightcrew have completed and passed the Level 6 exam?
If so, why? Is this another revenue making exercise for CASA or do they have a legitimate concern that we (Australian citizens) are stuggling to comprehend an/or communicate what is our 'mother' language??
If so, why? Is this another revenue making exercise for CASA or do they have a legitimate concern that we (Australian citizens) are stuggling to comprehend an/or communicate what is our 'mother' language??
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I like it Richo! 
I don't want to be sharing airspace with people who don't understand what I am saying or what ATC is saying. However, I think that this test should be done before people start spending money on expensive flying lessons and that organisations that take their money before they have taken this test should take a long hard look at themselves.
I don't want to be sharing airspace with people who don't understand what I am saying or what ATC is saying. However, I think that this test should be done before people start spending money on expensive flying lessons and that organisations that take their money before they have taken this test should take a long hard look at themselves.
Indeed this comming week there will be a series of meetings with the testing organisation.
Other problems involving questions with scenarios and lots of symbols to indicate things, none of the instructors were able to make sense of the questions.
These students(some) I might add, often join me down the at the local where we chew the fat on life in general over a few coldies.
I'm able to converse with them in a noisy environment quite easily without trying to make it simple. In short we talk just like a bunch of locals.
They do pick up things that are not overtly taught.
Instructor "Peng, can you go pre-flight the warrior please".
Student "no worries".
Other problems involving questions with scenarios and lots of symbols to indicate things, none of the instructors were able to make sense of the questions.
These students(some) I might add, often join me down the at the local where we chew the fat on life in general over a few coldies.
I'm able to converse with them in a noisy environment quite easily without trying to make it simple. In short we talk just like a bunch of locals.
They do pick up things that are not overtly taught.
Instructor "Peng, can you go pre-flight the warrior please".
Student "no worries".
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There is a requirment for the Student Pilots Licence as well. Not sure if its the full test, but as a C&T I did see something in the kit about SPL issues.
Maybe CFI or ATO could full us in.
Companies, like ours, that conduct overseas work had to ensure that all crews were tested and certified by the 5th or March 08.
The C&T's were tested by CASA over the phone. We then tested the crews and submited paperwork to CASA. I didn't personaly see any bills for this but I did get a reprint of my licence for free which was offered as part of this deal from CASA.
I am sure it will form part of a licence upgrade cost in the future but for the moment it appears to be free to exisiting pilots. How about you stop winging and get the test done now before you do have to pay for it.
Maybe CFI or ATO could full us in.
Companies, like ours, that conduct overseas work had to ensure that all crews were tested and certified by the 5th or March 08.
The C&T's were tested by CASA over the phone. We then tested the crews and submited paperwork to CASA. I didn't personaly see any bills for this but I did get a reprint of my licence for free which was offered as part of this deal from CASA.
I am sure it will form part of a licence upgrade cost in the future but for the moment it appears to be free to exisiting pilots. How about you stop winging and get the test done now before you do have to pay for it.
flypilotboy
where I am, the test has been available to be done for less than a fortnight, despite being required for nearly a month (since the 5th of Mar)
While I agree with you wrt people being able to understand English (recently witnessed an amusing event involving GND and a Warrior from another state
), many students almost at level 6 have had to have their flight tests delayed unnecessarily, one that stands out ended up with his test on Mar 6, which had to be cancelled as the English test had not been done. He wasn't quite level 6 (but still more than able to understand), and he wasn't able to book his test until after he passed level 4 or 5 (which he did), and the level 4/5 test wasn't open for bookings (not booked, it was simply not available) for a fortnight afterwards. Surprise, he has to fork out for revision flights because noone stays at CPL level with a fortnight of not flying.
I dont know anything about the content of the test, but FFS, if you're going to require people to do a test, make sure the test can be done BEFORE it has to be done!
You're a jerk Richo, a real knee-biter! (Just kidding, was thoroughly amused by the hitchikers quote)
where I am, the test has been available to be done for less than a fortnight, despite being required for nearly a month (since the 5th of Mar)
While I agree with you wrt people being able to understand English (recently witnessed an amusing event involving GND and a Warrior from another state
), many students almost at level 6 have had to have their flight tests delayed unnecessarily, one that stands out ended up with his test on Mar 6, which had to be cancelled as the English test had not been done. He wasn't quite level 6 (but still more than able to understand), and he wasn't able to book his test until after he passed level 4 or 5 (which he did), and the level 4/5 test wasn't open for bookings (not booked, it was simply not available) for a fortnight afterwards. Surprise, he has to fork out for revision flights because noone stays at CPL level with a fortnight of not flying. I dont know anything about the content of the test, but FFS, if you're going to require people to do a test, make sure the test can be done BEFORE it has to be done!
You're a jerk Richo, a real knee-biter! (Just kidding, was thoroughly amused by the hitchikers quote
)
