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It's official.Flight training to be HECS as of may 08

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It's official.Flight training to be HECS as of may 08

Old 27th Feb 2008, 00:32
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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thats right tlaw and wouldn't that be great if you had to have a good pass in the hsc and get your uai just like you do to get into uni.

the way it is now all that matters if daddy is rich enough or he is a cp or similar.

this way we would get the right people and if you don't have the cash up front but have studied at school and have the ability your into the semi's without dropping a shot and get a shot at your dreams.
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Old 27th Feb 2008, 00:34
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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According to the Dept of Employment education and training web site, it is called VET FEE-HELP. Similar to Hecs, but not limited to Uni/Tafe.
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Old 27th Feb 2008, 00:44
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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1a-tej have looked at the site can't find anything on flight training. Got a link (Track Jnr may be interested)?
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Old 27th Feb 2008, 01:04
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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yep! www.dest.gov.au then in the search box type in "vet". It will bring up the details. Not specific for flight training, but to the flight training provider to apply for the scheme.
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Old 27th Feb 2008, 02:09
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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Within a couple of years if this is true, it will become an employers market again. It will then be back to working at the pub and servo for a season before you get your first checkride

Thats what I thought as well

Although if the places are limited it would probably be a good thing....
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Old 27th Feb 2008, 02:12
  #26 (permalink)  
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Wasn't a similar scheme available in NZ a few years ago? I stand to be corrected, but I think one end result was a whole heap of young people with large debts and not much else to show for it.
Indeed. Working overseas with no intention of returning to repay HECS anytime soon
Has a familar ring to it doesnt it?
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Old 27th Feb 2008, 02:18
  #27 (permalink)  
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Hasselhof...
I go along with roamingwolf and that you can call it whatever you want but it is essentially a subsidised government loan.

It is true that the government pays most of the bill and that is the subsidised part and that the student pays about about one fifth or so of the total.

If someone has negotiated a deal for those who want to get a degree in aviation and either fly or whatever then that's great news.
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Old 27th Feb 2008, 02:26
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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http://mediacentre.dewr.gov.au/media...ceBill2008.htm

Interesting if it is true. A careful read of the above press release would appear to rule out the diploma courses run by schools at BK etc. It is quite specific that to be eligible: "VET providers have credit transfer arrangements with a higher education provider in place for each VET accredited Diploma or Advanced Diploma qualification."
This appears to mean that the course must lead to further education in the University system in order for FEE Help to become available.
Of course if my interpretation is wrong and it does become available to all it still doesn't cancel the fact that you must pay it back!
The Comet.
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Old 27th Feb 2008, 02:48
  #29 (permalink)  
Hasselhof
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Its all about the wording. There are three main funding arrangements for higher education these days

HECS-HELP
This is a loan scheme that allows students to defer payment of fees for commonwealth supported places. To the best of my knowledge the CSP funding only covers the cost of individual courses within a degree program that are provided by approved universities. These are limited in number, and academically competitive in allocation. CSP funds do not cover the flight training aspect of a Bachelor of Aviation degree at a university for example. This is effectively an interest free student loan on the already subsided cost of a university degree.

FEE-HELP
This is a loan scheme that allows students to defer payment for fees in a full fee paying place in an approved tertiary education award at university. There is no government subsidy toward the total cost of the award unlike there is with subsidized CSP places. This is effectively an interest free student loan for the full cost of a university degree.

VET FEE-HELP
This is a loan scheme that allows students to defer payment for the full cost of fees in an approved tertiary education award at locations other than university. (Eg it covers Diploma, Advanced Diploma level courses etc). There is no government subsidy toward the total cost of the award unlike there is with subsidized CSP places. This is effectively an interest free student loan for the full cost of a tertiary award from tertiary education providers other than those provided for by HECS-HELP or FEE-HELP loans.

If the government wants to put flight training under HECS-HELP then I am totally against it. Subsidized flight training is something that should be provided for by the military or the private sector (see the subsidy provided by Rex).

If they want to provide VET FEE-HELP loans to CPL students then I'm all for it. I wish that model of funding was around when I did my training and I certainly won't begrudge any student that takes the opportunity.
 
Old 27th Feb 2008, 03:14
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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This will never happen end of story. HECS for the uni course YES but for the flying I dont think so. And if it does happen then what happens to all of us that have spent hundreds of thousands of dollars and are paying off loans?
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Old 27th Feb 2008, 03:19
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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It used to happen in the 70's. Plenty of guys got instrument ratings paid for.
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Old 27th Feb 2008, 03:27
  #32 (permalink)  
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I hope it happens but only if it is open to all. I'm a 39 y.o. (turning 40 this year) CPL student that already has a loan of $15000 with none left for more flying and can't afford a top up loan at the moment due to family, childcare etc. Hopefully this isn't going to be age limited.... as i really want to finish this off and get a real job....FLYING
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Old 27th Feb 2008, 03:32
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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cool! where can i apply! will this be available in any VIC flight schools? i know you can already do this at Griffith Uni in QLD as part of their bachelor of aviation degree. Also what about rotary wing courses.
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Old 27th Feb 2008, 03:40
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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If the government wants to put flight training under HECS-HELP then I am totally against it
WHY?????

tell me the difference between a student studying to be a pilot,an architect,a doctor,a lawyer or whatever.

as long as this is done with an approved uni and flying school and you have passes the entry quals. then so what.

And if it does happen then what happens to all of us that have spent hundreds of thousands of dollars and are paying off loans?
this is what this is all about.we live in the 'me' generation.
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Old 27th Feb 2008, 05:15
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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I dont know too much on it but I think its a good idea.

To get into the current uni courses (Swinburne for example) the enter scores arent too high, it leaves the path open to students with parents who have money to throw around. Although I can say a large large majority of students who do go through with these courses are motivated and do complete the hard yards, my thinking is that if the government makes it more affordable, it will leave the door open to students who cant afford the bank loans or dont have the rich parents. Not only this - Aviation is a career path you would think is appealing to people - Enter scores could probably be lifted (say.. into the 90s somewhere), so the "brighter" students get in... or to correct myself, the students with the motivation who can actually be stuffed studying and acing VCE which in my opinion, i know some intelligent guys who flunked it cause they weren't interested or other influences, and I also know some not too bright people who simply studied the syllabus back to front, aced their exams and scored in the high 90s.

Leaves the door open to both sides I guess depending how you look at it.

I just wish I could get the rest of my flying covered by something like HECS, because then honestly I wouldnt be aiming to complete my 150hour CPL syllabus right on the 150hrs, concerned my parents wont have the money in case I go over $$ wise.

If my flying was covered by a HECS loan I'd fly how much I'd want (not to get carried away), considering you dont have to pay it back once you start earning over about 35g a year and its not a major deduction off your pay, if the debt is 60g or 70g I dont think you would really care what you're going to be paying off later in the future as nobody really struggles paying HECs debts off.
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Old 27th Feb 2008, 07:24
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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OK kiddies, I'll don me professorial bonnet and learn youse sompin!

A university offering a non-full fee paying domestic student places in a traditional professional degree program (ie medicine) receives funding from two sources:

1) CGS = Commonwealth Grants Scheme = monies paid by the Federal Government to the university for a funded student place

2) HECS = Higher Education Contribution Scheme = monies paid by the student to the university as a contribution to the cost of their education.

The Federal Gov make a HECS loan scheme available whereby a student can defer payment of their HECS. The Feds pay the money to the Uni and then collect the money back from the student when they start earning above a threshold - via the income tax system.

The ratio of CGS:HECS varies with the degree program.

For medicine (off the top of my head) its something like:

CGS ($16,000) + HECS ($8,000) = $24,000 total per annum to the university for a med student.

Total funding is in a number of bands (12?) with Medicine and others in the top band and law (I think) and others in the bottom band.

The $24,000 pa to the uni for a funded place in medicine compares with about $32,000 for a full fee domestic place, and maybe $35,000 for an international full fee place.

The argument that should be made to the Rudd Gov is for approved aviation degree programs (eg Griffiths) to be funded as for medicine (including the flying component) with CGS and HECS, and for the HECS loan scheme to be available to enrolled students.

Lesson over.

Dr
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Old 27th Feb 2008, 10:56
  #37 (permalink)  
 
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I have worked for 5 years solid to save 90 grand, dollar for every stinking dollar! That is commitment. I, fortunately, don't need to use HECS and pisses me off to hear others who simply hit the bank up for the money, complaining about those able to access HECS for their training and labeling them as uncommitted!!! In my opinion, if you can't save the money, you are no more deserving than those you gripe about!!!

Getting a regular loan through a bank is no different to using HECS!!! Doesn't make you more committed or worthy of a job!!! Getting the job will always come down to performance and attitude and not necessarily in that order. Regardless of the fact that I have saved all required funds to see myself through to ATPL, DOES NOT entitle me to a job over someone who uses a bank loan or HECS!!!

I agree that there needs to be screening for this scheme to be successful. But for those that put themselves on a pedestal because they are using a bank loan and not a government loan, chill out your attitude is ass about and my guess is you'd find it hard to get past the interview stage!!!
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Old 27th Feb 2008, 11:20
  #38 (permalink)  
Hasselhof
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For the last time!!!

The debate here is should flight training be subsidized by the government (HECS)?

or

Should students receiving flight training have access to interest free student loans to cover the full cost of their training provided by the government (VET FEE-HELP)?

or

Should students get stuff all from the government like they have for the last x many years (sweet f/a aka. status quo)

My vote would be preferably option 2, however option 3 still works and I can see a valid argument for option 1 when it is in association with a Bachelor of Aviation.

Regardless it makes piss all difference to me as I was able to get an interest free loan from parents many moons ago which is now paid off in full (+ some interest I thought they deserved for putting up with me for all those years).

i'm outta here
 
Old 27th Feb 2008, 13:04
  #39 (permalink)  
 
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A student loan type scheme to help out aviation students is very much a double edged sword. They have full funding for flight training in NZ and it means those who are limited by $$$ can still do what they dream of. However it also means that a lot of non committed people get in there and decide one day that it would be cool to wear a pretty uniform and be a pilot. So you get flight schools full of people that are never going to make it in aviation clocking up huge loans for no gain. A couple of long haired, pierced to hell guys dressed like hippies trying to do their CPL chopper licence i met come to mind here.
Another problem is that when these guys get out of flight school, with only 170-200 hours or whatever, they owe $45000 and their first flying job, if they can get one, pays absolutely stuff all. Of course if its a chopper licence, maybe with an instructor rating, we're talking 80-90K!!

While it enables everyone to fly all day every day and learn faster, therefore less hours, I reckon it has the flipside of exposing students to less varied conditions for life outside flight school. I myself took 4 and a half years to do my licence, paying for it as I went at the aeroclub while working as groundcrew and getting exposure to real-deal flying and I beleive it made it a LOT easier to get a job flying when the time came as well as good experience.

Flying costs also tend to rise with a loan scheme. Ask flying students in NZ what the chargeout rate on the 172 they are learning on. Half them have no idea!! They just know they have a $42000 loan. The flying schools see it as a cash cow so take advantage of it. An Ardmore flying school I talked to about 3 years ago were then charging $285 an hour for a 172 dual!! Meanwhile my local Aeroclub was charging $165 an hour in the Archer dual, but because they werent on the student loan scheme, were struggling to get CPL students.

So while it makes it easier to get a licence, the loan scheme just pushes up prices, introduces useless oxygen theives to aviation, and kills the aeroclubs. At the end of the day tho, what is the best solution for such a pricey occupation?
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Old 27th Feb 2008, 22:54
  #40 (permalink)  
 
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eclan,
mate i'm confused by your last post.
Through HECS A Mediocre Pilot Workforce
does that mean that all students who use the hecs scheme are mediocre?

i'm not sure now if i want to go to the doc's or use a bridge built by an engineer who used hecs to go through uni.all these mediocre students getting degrees at uni,god save us.
I was able to get an interest free loan from parents many moons ago
life is full of people who weren't born with a silver spoon in their mouth and might/would do a lot better than some who were lucky to have a rich daddy.

if properly administered a hecs or hecs similar scheme would give the chance to many who otherwise would not be able to live their dream and that does not mean their performance or abilities have to be mediocre.

the difference would be in the selection process just like it is in any interview for any profession.
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