Question re Flight Following
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Mel-burn
Posts: 4,875
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Question re Flight Following
I had occasion to use flight following this weekend as I had some precious cargo on-board.
Departed Melbourne and headed VFR coastal East past Lakes Entrance into some very remote country out towards Gabo island and then North past Merimbula.
Before heading off I put in a plan on the computer and intiated it through East Sale. I requested flight following outside East Sale and my request was granted and I wasn't given a code, so was on 1200.
Then I start to fade from radar at Lakes Entrance and am called my Mel Centre to advise me that my radar service is terminated.
The way I see it is that I'm now heading into the most dangerous part (weather and terrain) of my voyage and I'm told that I can't have flight following any more.
So I request that I be assigned a discreet code so that if I "fade back into radar" again, they'll know where I am. My wish is granted and away I go. Later on in the flight I hear Melobourne giving my position to an IFR aircraft doing an IFR approach into Mallacoota. The other aircraft is given my altitude, ETA and heading at Mallacoota. So I'm back in radar coverage... however had I not asked, they wouldn't know it was me.
Anyway, same goes today, depart Moruya to head south along reciprocal track and I can't get flight because my ident is observed, but they can't see my 1200. I'm told radar services not available. I ask for a code, get one, the 45 mins later am observed back on radar and away I go.
Sooooo.... my question is, why does it work this way? Surely fading in and out happens all the time on radar and if you're not assigned a code, it would be *more* work to keep an eye on you?
It seems that when you need the service the most, as in if you disappear in a remote area, wouldn't it be better to pop up here and there on radar (with an assigned code) now and then rather than not at all?
Should I just wait for ADSB or use Mode S? Is it too much work to give a code?
Departed Melbourne and headed VFR coastal East past Lakes Entrance into some very remote country out towards Gabo island and then North past Merimbula.
Before heading off I put in a plan on the computer and intiated it through East Sale. I requested flight following outside East Sale and my request was granted and I wasn't given a code, so was on 1200.
Then I start to fade from radar at Lakes Entrance and am called my Mel Centre to advise me that my radar service is terminated.
The way I see it is that I'm now heading into the most dangerous part (weather and terrain) of my voyage and I'm told that I can't have flight following any more.
So I request that I be assigned a discreet code so that if I "fade back into radar" again, they'll know where I am. My wish is granted and away I go. Later on in the flight I hear Melobourne giving my position to an IFR aircraft doing an IFR approach into Mallacoota. The other aircraft is given my altitude, ETA and heading at Mallacoota. So I'm back in radar coverage... however had I not asked, they wouldn't know it was me.
Anyway, same goes today, depart Moruya to head south along reciprocal track and I can't get flight because my ident is observed, but they can't see my 1200. I'm told radar services not available. I ask for a code, get one, the 45 mins later am observed back on radar and away I go.
Sooooo.... my question is, why does it work this way? Surely fading in and out happens all the time on radar and if you're not assigned a code, it would be *more* work to keep an eye on you?
It seems that when you need the service the most, as in if you disappear in a remote area, wouldn't it be better to pop up here and there on radar (with an assigned code) now and then rather than not at all?
Should I just wait for ADSB or use Mode S? Is it too much work to give a code?
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Sydney Australia
Posts: 166
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Flight following is one of the best tings to come out of the NAS. I frequently do trip VFR by night and call on flight following quite a bit. ATC have always been helpful it's a godsend when you are on your way to unfamiliar control zones as clearances are usually arranged and VHF handoffs down. Remember if you can try and get as high as possible the radar coverage seems much better above 8500.
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: in the classroom of life
Age: 55
Posts: 6,864
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
I have always had a code, but its not mandatory, however if you put a plan in and its all in Class G, on first contact ask for a code and flight following. They will have no drama giving you one.
Thanks to the boys in Bris RAD and APP DEP and Tower for allowing me through yesteday with a likely encoder failure, or data cable failure. Most likely a cable problem as it worked 99% today.
Dont ya love electronics!!!!
Will get it fixed this week I promise....or I hope!
J
Thanks to the boys in Bris RAD and APP DEP and Tower for allowing me through yesteday with a likely encoder failure, or data cable failure. Most likely a cable problem as it worked 99% today.
Dont ya love electronics!!!!
Will get it fixed this week I promise....or I hope!
J
Every single time I go flying, I have VERY precious cargo on board.
Me.
Having said that, East Gippsland is not, by a long shot, "some very remote country", least of all that you're smack on top of the 90 mile beach for most of your trip.
The information passed to the IFR arrival at Merimbula was given plenty of information about you - all of which came from your flight plan. There is nothing to suggest that you had re-entered radar coverage - and indeed, if you had left radar coverage at Lakes, chances are you won't re-enter it on that flight. How high were you flying? If you want to remain within radar coverage, the higher you are the longer you will remain visible to the radar.
Me.
Having said that, East Gippsland is not, by a long shot, "some very remote country", least of all that you're smack on top of the 90 mile beach for most of your trip.
The information passed to the IFR arrival at Merimbula was given plenty of information about you - all of which came from your flight plan. There is nothing to suggest that you had re-entered radar coverage - and indeed, if you had left radar coverage at Lakes, chances are you won't re-enter it on that flight. How high were you flying? If you want to remain within radar coverage, the higher you are the longer you will remain visible to the radar.
Flight Following
The radar infoprmation in the area of MCO and MER is derived from East Sale and hence as you go east the lower you are the less the radar coverage. Once you drop off radar there is virtually no chance of being seen again heading to Moruya coastal. Flight following cannot be provided if ATC can't see you!! The controller concerned probably "resurrected" your inhibited flight plan although you were off radar which displayed your "flight plan" position in order to establish your approximate position for the IFR aircraft decending into Mallacoota. I'm sure the controller would have given the traffic as such to the IFR that your position was an approximation. Just because there is a VFR plan in the system doesn't mean that it has been activated and the approximate position of every VFR is known (on radar or not)- it will only be activated and system track estimates performed behind the scenes after a discrete code has been issued and the track correlated with the appropriate aircraft. If the aircraft subsequently passes outside radar coverage the system will continue processing the position based on aircraft performance / winds etc
Flight following! A completely mythical entity.
I asked for flight following once - "Not available" came the reply.
Jaba thought he would show me how to use flight following, "Ah Centre XXX request flight following". "Not available at this time", came back the reply. He never mentioned it again.
Dr
I asked for flight following once - "Not available" came the reply.
Jaba thought he would show me how to use flight following, "Ah Centre XXX request flight following". "Not available at this time", came back the reply. He never mentioned it again.
Dr
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: On a Ship Near You
Posts: 787
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I highly recommend flight following; but doing it where radar coverage is sparse at best makes no sense.
FTDK, What we have here is a conundrum, FF (RIS) is a workload permitting service; and at present with all the staff shortages going on most ATCs are working 2 or 3 sectors which they would normally have the ability to split to another controller. But they aren't available, so guess what happens to FF requests.
Personally I've done 3 last week; from 3 requests. So it is actually happening.
The other thing to remember; is just cause you planned doesn't mean we have a plan. With all the data filtering that goes on; your plan will be kept; but may never make it into TAAATS. Unless some computer somewhere thinks that a controller will need it i.e. you are going to enter Class C. No just in case assessments (it's computerised); even if you put RMK/Request Flight Following; it still won't make it in.
In these cases, you have to bare with us, as we've got to go get someone to find it and send it to us. This could be 5 minutes depending on what's going on.
Re the original 'discreet code' issue; this can be problematic for us. When you leave radar, "Radar Service Terminated" we 'inhibit' your plan, then every-time you 'repaint' for 3 paints effectively, it reactivates your previous plan as long as you are close to your original route; we get the label attached to your code and and it hands-off to the sector whose airspace you are in; this then makes that person, follow up on why you have just appeared etc. Also not flying on A1200 and coming into radar (off track) can make us think it's an IFR slipped through the cracks and start search action at our end for the aircraft and the plan, etc.
It's bad practice to let VFRs fly around on discreet codes while not getting a service as it can induce us into a lather trying to explain why we didn't comply with the procedures especially if someone panics, ie you are off track in E and we think you are IFR, tea and bickies with the boss etc. I don't like it. Then there are those 'liability issues' like you were off track (for so many reasons), but we didn't tell you if we just inhibit you again.
Otherwise we could give everyone their own code and know where you all are at all times; alas we don't have enough codes.
FTDK, What we have here is a conundrum, FF (RIS) is a workload permitting service; and at present with all the staff shortages going on most ATCs are working 2 or 3 sectors which they would normally have the ability to split to another controller. But they aren't available, so guess what happens to FF requests.
Personally I've done 3 last week; from 3 requests. So it is actually happening.
The other thing to remember; is just cause you planned doesn't mean we have a plan. With all the data filtering that goes on; your plan will be kept; but may never make it into TAAATS. Unless some computer somewhere thinks that a controller will need it i.e. you are going to enter Class C. No just in case assessments (it's computerised); even if you put RMK/Request Flight Following; it still won't make it in.
In these cases, you have to bare with us, as we've got to go get someone to find it and send it to us. This could be 5 minutes depending on what's going on.
Re the original 'discreet code' issue; this can be problematic for us. When you leave radar, "Radar Service Terminated" we 'inhibit' your plan, then every-time you 'repaint' for 3 paints effectively, it reactivates your previous plan as long as you are close to your original route; we get the label attached to your code and and it hands-off to the sector whose airspace you are in; this then makes that person, follow up on why you have just appeared etc. Also not flying on A1200 and coming into radar (off track) can make us think it's an IFR slipped through the cracks and start search action at our end for the aircraft and the plan, etc.
It's bad practice to let VFRs fly around on discreet codes while not getting a service as it can induce us into a lather trying to explain why we didn't comply with the procedures especially if someone panics, ie you are off track in E and we think you are IFR, tea and bickies with the boss etc. I don't like it. Then there are those 'liability issues' like you were off track (for so many reasons), but we didn't tell you if we just inhibit you again.
Otherwise we could give everyone their own code and know where you all are at all times; alas we don't have enough codes.
Ooh, is a discreet code one that no one ever mentions? Maybe its that one you dial into the transponder without the hijackers knowing what you're doing?
Ive only used flight-following twice - once, I was on 1200, and the second time, I was on a discrete code.
Ive only used flight-following twice - once, I was on 1200, and the second time, I was on a discrete code.
Discrte code
"Ooh, is a discreet code one that no one ever mentions? Maybe its that one you dial into the transponder without the hijackers knowing what you're doing?"
Yeah right!!
You're confusing emergency codes with discrete codes- discrete codes are the individual codes assigned by the TAAATS system to each flight plan. When the previous system Auscats was first implemented RPT aircraft actually had a "skin code" ie a code permanently assigned to each RPT aircraft- naturally you soon ran out of codes so this was scrapped in favour of codes being assigned as needed to each plan.
Yeah right!!
You're confusing emergency codes with discrete codes- discrete codes are the individual codes assigned by the TAAATS system to each flight plan. When the previous system Auscats was first implemented RPT aircraft actually had a "skin code" ie a code permanently assigned to each RPT aircraft- naturally you soon ran out of codes so this was scrapped in favour of codes being assigned as needed to each plan.
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: in the classroom of life
Age: 55
Posts: 6,864
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
SM4 Pirate
Just a thought here, but when you cease radar services would it be better to have a standard phrase something like....... ABC squawk 1200 and radar services term. freq change approved...Gidday!
I have been on a VFR plan and had FF, and knowing that rada will come and go, when I have been advised that the service is terminated I have asked if they want me to keep the code, in cases where I have continued into CTA they have said yes. Other times 1200.
Just wonder if anyone has thought this through from an instruction point of view.
Direct No Speed
The instance FTDK refers to was ex Townsville just after being passed off from the tower. The BNE CEN guy sounded like he was extremely stressed and under training or whatever you they do.....so I am not surprised. Haing said that its the only time I have been knocked back. Just happened to be the time I was driving the FTDK with the Doc. As luck would have it, he got flipped off his IFR plan going into Jandakot, which I predicted......he was not impressed!!!
Was pretty funny after the TSV encounter!
J
Just a thought here, but when you cease radar services would it be better to have a standard phrase something like....... ABC squawk 1200 and radar services term. freq change approved...Gidday!
I have been on a VFR plan and had FF, and knowing that rada will come and go, when I have been advised that the service is terminated I have asked if they want me to keep the code, in cases where I have continued into CTA they have said yes. Other times 1200.
Just wonder if anyone has thought this through from an instruction point of view.
Direct No Speed
The instance FTDK refers to was ex Townsville just after being passed off from the tower. The BNE CEN guy sounded like he was extremely stressed and under training or whatever you they do.....so I am not surprised. Haing said that its the only time I have been knocked back. Just happened to be the time I was driving the FTDK with the Doc. As luck would have it, he got flipped off his IFR plan going into Jandakot, which I predicted......he was not impressed!!!
Was pretty funny after the TSV encounter!J
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: in the classroom of life
Age: 55
Posts: 6,864
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
For Flight Following ya cheeky bugger!
direct.no.speed
You would almost be correct about the GAAP, however we were turfed out once we became visual, and nowhere near the GAAP reporting point.
Would have been interesting to see what happend if we had kept quiet
.
Understand the logic behind keeping codes for future entry into radar coverage
As for when the service is over, and you are not likely to be using it again, and may pop in and out, would it be best to be told, squawk1200 and freq change app, rather than not say anything?
Cheers
J
direct.no.speed
You would almost be correct about the GAAP, however we were turfed out once we became visual, and nowhere near the GAAP reporting point.
Would have been interesting to see what happend if we had kept quiet
.Understand the logic behind keeping codes for future entry into radar coverage
As for when the service is over, and you are not likely to be using it again, and may pop in and out, would it be best to be told, squawk1200 and freq change app, rather than not say anything?
Cheers
J
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Dubai
Age: 44
Posts: 80
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My understanding is that a VFR in Class G/E who is not getting RIS (Flight Following) should be squawking 1200. Frankly, I am generally busy enough without worrying about someone painting on my radar screen with a discrete code - as others have said before here, is that an IFR a/c just popped on radar, VFR who hasn't switched code, what???? Then I have to interrupt what other work I am doing to sort it out.
I think that when FF is terminated for whatever reason, the VFR should be instructed to squawk 1200. This should also happen for when VFR leaves Class C for E/G. Once again, VFR in class E/G non-RIS should be squawking 1200.
If you feel that you are in radar coverage and want the service, have a look at your transponder; if the little red light (its name is on the tip of my tongue!) activates, we can probably see you. Squawk ident when it is quiet and pipe up 'ABC, 15 south of YBUN at a045, squawking IDENT, request flight following'. My eyes go straight to that area, see an IDENT return, I know it is you, tag the return as such and give you the service. If later on, I need you on a discrete code (say crossing FIR boundary or across into Approach airspace) I will give you one, otherwise continue with 1200.
I think that when FF is terminated for whatever reason, the VFR should be instructed to squawk 1200. This should also happen for when VFR leaves Class C for E/G. Once again, VFR in class E/G non-RIS should be squawking 1200.
If you feel that you are in radar coverage and want the service, have a look at your transponder; if the little red light (its name is on the tip of my tongue!) activates, we can probably see you. Squawk ident when it is quiet and pipe up 'ABC, 15 south of YBUN at a045, squawking IDENT, request flight following'. My eyes go straight to that area, see an IDENT return, I know it is you, tag the return as such and give you the service. If later on, I need you on a discrete code (say crossing FIR boundary or across into Approach airspace) I will give you one, otherwise continue with 1200.
Sooooo.... my question is, why does it work this way?
The service is an on request and only can begin by a request from the pilot. If you cannot be seen, you cannot have the service until you ask and at the same time be seen. Technically by the controller leaving you on a code, when you pop back on and they call you up to start it again, they are initiating it. If the controller told you that this is what they are going to do, the controller again is opening themself up to SAR issues as if they call you and you are doing something else on some other frequency as you should be doing when not getting the service, suddenly they have an unanswered call and have to run with the SAR action.
I delivered the training for this little gem and the package was quite vague and I sent many an email to get the powers that be for answers. Being the trusting soul that I am, I of course kept them.
Another very grey area and one that I think 99% of the players on both sides of the fence do not understand is frequency boundary procedure. When you flog up to a new frequency, you are supposed to initiate the continuation by saying 'Request handoff for flight following'. This was based originally on the Dick's Biscuit and you deciding that you needed to change but in the world we have now, it is based on the big line on the map. The controller should, if you say nothing, terminate the service at their frequency bounday whether you are identified or not.
Useful service is everybody knows what to do and radar is strong but wishy washy and confusing otherwise.
