Amended levels at Clearance Delivery
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Amended levels at Clearance Delivery
Just wondering what people think about getting cleared at 'amended' levels by clearance delivery, often ridiculously lower than the flight planned level, then getting susbequent climb?
Does it create any confusion about what your final cruising level might end up actually being?
Is it a pain in the arse with respect to FMS?
Does it create any confusion about what your final cruising level might end up actually being?
Is it a pain in the arse with respect to FMS?
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Are you talking about "Maintain 5000" and alike? Or an actual ammended level?
"ABC cleared to KLAX via blah, Amended level A050........" (whilst flight plan is at FL370 ish)
that kind of thing.
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Don't know why you say amended - the clearance is Maintain 5000 or 6000 usually.
If the route and/or level issued in the airways clearance is not in
accordance with the Flight Plan, prefix the route and/or level
clearance with AMENDED.
I take the point of the 'paper-stop' but....I still feel that these initial level restictions should belong in the realms of departure or control instuctions. Where is the 'paper-stop' between controller A and controller B?
Isn't this transferring the responsibility for separation into workload and increased confusion for the cockpit?
Thoughts?
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Clearance Delivery can only get you an initial clearnace. and they are limited to 3000'
Departures then get you on climb to 3000 and move you as they need to and climb you when they can.
I was given an Amended 3000 clearance, and Dep then recleared me amended 1600, then after traffice was clear climb to flight plan alt.
its just a box arond they airport up to 3000' to get you in the air and then depaurtes move the traffic around as required. they then set you on track and give you to centre.
there isnt much confusion if you listen to the controller and read back what he says.
Departures then get you on climb to 3000 and move you as they need to and climb you when they can.
I was given an Amended 3000 clearance, and Dep then recleared me amended 1600, then after traffice was clear climb to flight plan alt.
its just a box arond they airport up to 3000' to get you in the air and then depaurtes move the traffic around as required. they then set you on track and give you to centre.
there isnt much confusion if you listen to the controller and read back what he says.
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Clearance delivery is usually a much quieter frequency than tower. The frequency congestion that would be caused by using tower to tell every aircraft 'maintain 3000' and the subsequent read back would be huge during peak times.
Are you saying Clearance Delivery should clear you straight to FL370?
Greedo
Is your question a hypothetical one or based on experience?
While I don't spend any time in the Flight Levels (apart from an hour or so at FL140 last week), I do get to hear the jet-jocky traffic.
I would have said that when they get an ammended clearance as you describe it is usually only temporary due to traffic and ATC issues and they seem to be recleared to what I assume was their flightplanned level quite quickly.
For example, the initial clearance from "Clearance Delivery" might be to FL160 but on transferring to Approach/Departures they are recleared to FL360.
There must be some blow-pipe pilots in here who can speak with authority!
Dr
PS: Interestingly, the guy on Clearance Delivery did not even hesitate when clearing the BE35 to FL140 last week.
Is your question a hypothetical one or based on experience?
While I don't spend any time in the Flight Levels (apart from an hour or so at FL140 last week), I do get to hear the jet-jocky traffic.
I would have said that when they get an ammended clearance as you describe it is usually only temporary due to traffic and ATC issues and they seem to be recleared to what I assume was their flightplanned level quite quickly.
For example, the initial clearance from "Clearance Delivery" might be to FL160 but on transferring to Approach/Departures they are recleared to FL360.
There must be some blow-pipe pilots in here who can speak with authority!
Dr
PS: Interestingly, the guy on Clearance Delivery did not even hesitate when clearing the BE35 to FL140 last week.
Grandpa Aerotart
It is a bit of an anomaly in Oz procedures.
O/S they have 'stop heights' on SID plates, such as 6000' at LHR and 3000' at DXB. Your clearance will be "Cleared to XYZ, BS1 departure, squawk 1234". In the notes section and/or in a Frequency box on the SID plate will be information on when to change after takeoff and what frequency...usually asap after passing 500' (agl).
Thus there is no need for 'amended' altitudes because they are unable, understandably, to clear you direct to cruise level.
Invariably you're cleared higher, traffic permitting, as soon as you change to departure frequency after takeoff.
It makes perfect sense and is a system that works very well...not to mention greatly simplifying clearance delivery/readback...unlike Oz clearances that generally go along the lines of "XYZ cleared to sydney via laravale 2, amended 6000', Flight plan route, departure frequency (or is it "First frequency airborne") 123.4"
What would you rather listen to, absorb and readback?
O/S they have 'stop heights' on SID plates, such as 6000' at LHR and 3000' at DXB. Your clearance will be "Cleared to XYZ, BS1 departure, squawk 1234". In the notes section and/or in a Frequency box on the SID plate will be information on when to change after takeoff and what frequency...usually asap after passing 500' (agl).
Thus there is no need for 'amended' altitudes because they are unable, understandably, to clear you direct to cruise level.
Invariably you're cleared higher, traffic permitting, as soon as you change to departure frequency after takeoff.
It makes perfect sense and is a system that works very well...not to mention greatly simplifying clearance delivery/readback...unlike Oz clearances that generally go along the lines of "XYZ cleared to sydney via laravale 2, amended 6000', Flight plan route, departure frequency (or is it "First frequency airborne") 123.4"
What would you rather listen to, absorb and readback?
Last edited by Chimbu chuckles; 1st Feb 2008 at 05:42.
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Well, how dare there be a confliction; or a need to do coordination to the sectors about the aircraft about to launch into their airspace; the nerve of them imposing a 'clearance'.
All clearance delivery's have different procedures, something they are looking at in the 'bigger picture'; but it may be coupled with another thread here recently with non-ATCs doing it. For example Canberra is very different from Sydney.
Geez, purleez... Seriously though, ring the tower and talk to someone who does it (to you); go for a visit and learn "why" they do it; depite our reputations we actually like to explain why we do things, to stop argy bargy and increase knowledge all around.
Chimbu, bring them plates on here too; sounds great.
All clearance delivery's have different procedures, something they are looking at in the 'bigger picture'; but it may be coupled with another thread here recently with non-ATCs doing it. For example Canberra is very different from Sydney.
Geez, purleez... Seriously though, ring the tower and talk to someone who does it (to you); go for a visit and learn "why" they do it; depite our reputations we actually like to explain why we do things, to stop argy bargy and increase knowledge all around.
Chimbu, bring them plates on here too; sounds great.
What I hate is getting a clearance at say Mackey to FL 240, but you know as soon as you line up its " maintain 3000 clear for takeoff".
ccysam
That's cause I am inbound from Rocky in the FTDK and you might run into me if they let you charge on up to FL240.
Dr
ccysam
That's cause I am inbound from Rocky in the FTDK and you might run into me if they let you charge on up to FL240.
Dr
Must be something about radio failure to consider as well.
What if your radio fails at 500' in IMC, you can't stay at 5000' all the way to destination............so what are you supposed to do? How long do you stay at 5000' before "continuing as per flight plan"
What if your radio fails at 500' in IMC, you can't stay at 5000' all the way to destination............so what are you supposed to do? How long do you stay at 5000' before "continuing as per flight plan"
Grandpa Aerotart
Probably why Jets have 3 VHFs/2 HFs and any half serious IFR single/twin has 2 VHFs/1 HF...and why SID plates have lost coms procedures printed on them.
I think they have it covered, don't you?
I think they have it covered, don't you?
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ccysam, are you serious?
It's called separation.
Cheers,
NFR.
What I hate is getting a clearance at say Mackey to FL 240, but you know as soon as you line up its " maintain 3000 clear for takeoff".
Cheers,
NFR.
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any half serious IFR single/twin has 2 VHFs/1 HF
Bottums Up
Ex ASP it's A080, PER & CNS it's A060 but at DRW it's A030. The DRW SID is RWY HDG to A020 then turn, the Douglas B717 rockets skywards and starts to capture A030 before approach clears one to higher levels.
Now that's frustrating but then again, it is DRW.
Now that's frustrating but then again, it is DRW.
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XYZ cleared to sydney via laravale 2, amended 6000', Flight plan route, departure frequency (or is it "First frequency airborne") 123.4
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Greedo my 2.2 cents worth (GST inc)
We use 6000FT at YBBN to allow for auto releases. INbound acft assigned 7000FT then managed vertically by approach below that.
Its called separation assurance. We used to have aircraft cleared through to FL200 and had a few nasties. The 6000FT serves well.
YBCG has a cap of 6000FT for different traffic management reasons as well as catering for the route lowest safe to the south of 5700FT.
Like wise YSSY etc.
We use 6000FT at YBBN to allow for auto releases. INbound acft assigned 7000FT then managed vertically by approach below that.
Its called separation assurance. We used to have aircraft cleared through to FL200 and had a few nasties. The 6000FT serves well.
YBCG has a cap of 6000FT for different traffic management reasons as well as catering for the route lowest safe to the south of 5700FT.
Like wise YSSY etc.