IFR night current....

[Peter Fanelli]

The time I've spent today looking at various CASA publications leads me to think that the CAO's and CAR's as they were back in the 70's and 80's were much easier to comprehend.

Anyone agree?

[Roger Copy Ta]

The aeronautical experience of an applicant for the issue of a command instrument rating shall include
e: except for those persons whose licence is restricted to day only operations, 10 hours night flight of which not less than 5 hours shall be as pilot in command on the category of aircraft for which the rating is sought.

I have less than 2 hours PIC multi at night (no ICUS but 15 dual). Does this mean I can't fly multi engines at night under IFR?

My night rating is restricted to single engine but my MECIR is unrestricted.

Very confusing.

By the way, why the distinction between multi at night vs single at night? IMHO if you have a night rating you have a night rating and if you have a ME endorsement you have a multi engine endorsement! It is ridiculous to have a night rating and a ME endorsement but not able to use them together!!!

[Icarus53]

It is ridiculous to have a night rating and a ME endorsement but not able to use them together!!!

By that rationale, you don't need a MECIR! You just need a multi endorsement and the rating and you're good to go.

It doesn't matter how much multi night PIC you have, you just need the night PIC and as long you have the MECIR, you are fine to fly at night in multis (my ratings are pretty much the same).

[Zhaadum]

Several situations regarding aeronautical experience people may have
when they get their first IR-C-ME(A) are possible here.

Part of the aeronautical experience requirements for the IR-C-ME(A) is:
10 hours total night flight and of this not less than 5 hours as PIC in the
category of aircraft for which the rating is sought (aeroplane).

You cannot get a IR without this night experience unless you have a MEDICAL reason limiting you to day only ops.
It could be just circuits, the CAO do not specify what exactly.

For these situations let us assume recency, I am only talking about aeronautical experience requirements here.

Situation 1:

With the above you can fly SE or ME :

IFR Day or Night, (by virtue of IR, CPL and A/c Endo)
VFR Day, (by virtue of CPL and A/c Endo)

You cannot fly NVFR, you do not meet the aeronautical experience for a NVFR rating (IE NVFR Nav training)

Situation 2:

With the above plus the NVFR Nav training specified in CAO 40.2.2 Appendix 1, you can fly SE or ME:

IFR Day or Night, (by virtue of IR, CPL and A/c Endo)
VFR Day, (by virtue of CPL and A/c Endo)



NVFR, private and airwork as long as you meet recency requirements too.

(Note, you do not have to have sat the flight test for NVFR however if your IR lapses you can't fly NVFR at all).

You cannot do NVFR charter.


Situation 3:

With the above plus the NVFR Nav training specified in CAO 40.2.2 Appendix 1,
and having also passed a SE NVFR flight test, you can fly SE or ME:

IFR Day or Night, (by virtue of IR, CPL and A/c Endo)
VFR Day, (by virtue of CPL and A/c Endo)



NVFR, private and airwork as long as you meet recency requirements too.

(Note, that if your IR lapses you can still fly NVFR but only SE. The reason is that you have to pass a ME NVFR flight test to upgrade to a ME NVFR. The specific item from the ME flight test that you have NOT done in your SE NVFR flight test is an Engine Failure in cruise at or above LSALT.

The fact that you may have done heaps of them in cloud during your IR training and IR flight test is irrelevant. I agree it probably SHOULD be relevant but that is the way the CAO is now.)

You still cannot do NVFR charter.

Situation 4:

With the above plus the NVFR Nav training specified in CAO 40.2.2 Appendix 1,
and having also passed a ME NVFR flight test, you can fly SE or ME:

IFR Day or Night, (by virtue of IR, CPL and A/c Endo)
VFR Day, (by virtue of CPL and A/c Endo)
NVFR, private and airwork as long as you meet recency requirements too.
Now if your IR lapses you can still fly NVFR SE or ME.

You still cannot do NVFR charter.

Situation 5:

With the aeronautical experience in situation 3 or 4 plus the following:

Charter flights under night V.F.R. procedures, provided the following
aeronautical and recent experience requirements are satisfied:
(i) Aeronautical Experience. The pilot’s aeronautical experience shall
include 10 hours cross-country flight time using night V.F.R.
procedures including a minimum of 2 navigation exercises (of at
least 300 nautical miles or 3 hours duration), as either pilot in
command or in command under supervision. Each exercise shall
exceed a distance of 100 nautical miles from the point of departure
and shall provide at least 1 landing at an aerodrome other than that
of departure, located in an area remote from extensive ground
lighting.
(ii) Recent Experience. The pilot’s recent experience shall include
3 take-offs and landings by night within the preceding 90 days, and
either a night cross-country flight (of at least 100 nautical miles or
1 hour duration) within the preceding 6 months or a flight check by
night with an approved person also within the preceding 6 months.

This experience is IN ADDITION to the basic navs you would have done on
the NVFR training and they are PIC or ICUS not Dual like the training was.

You can now fly SE or ME:

IFR Day or Night, (by virtue of IR, CPL and A/c Endo)
VFR Day, (by virtue of CPL and A/c Endo)
NVFR, private and airwork as long as you meet recency requirements too.
You can finally fly NVFR charter (ME only).

Now everyone is totally confused aren't they?

Z.

[Pinky the pilot]

The time I've spent today looking at various CASA publications leads me to think that the CAO's and CAR's as they were back in the 70's and 80's were much easier to comprehend.

Roger that!

[Cap'n Arrr]

Some points... may have been raised already:

- There is a Multi Engine NVFR rating.... includes engine failures in the cruise under the hood, not sure if you need it if you have a multi CIR, but definitely need it if you only have NVFR. You can upgrade to it by simply doing some area work in a twin. Possibly don't actually need to do a nav

- Flying IFR doesn't matter if it's day or night, you just need to meet the night circuit minima i.e. 3 T/O & Ldgs

I have a multi CIR but cannot fly NVFR... reason being I don't have the aeronautical experience required by the CAOs to do it. The only real difference is that if you have a CURRENT CIR you don't need to have passed the NVFR flight test to fly NVFR, as long as you have everything else required by it i.e. nav by NVFR of certain distance etc.

I can fly night IFR under the rating so long as I have those 3 circuits in 90 days. I cannot, however, downgrade to NVFR, I must remain IFR for the entire flight.

Arrr

[Clearedtoreenter]

Ok, so if you have an instructor rating with CIR and no NVFR, you can train students for NVFR(?) (i.e. aerial work)

[kalavo]

Ok, so if you have an instructor rating with CIR and no NVFR, you can train students for NVFR(?) (i.e. aerial work)

Absolutely. Providing their CIR is current and they are night current.

This situation actually annoyed the $#!! out of a friend of mine. He got his grade one instructor ticket, had hundreds of hours at night, and trained over 70 students for their NVFR rating.

Called CASA and asked if he could be issued with an NVFR so he didnt need to renew his instrument rating and was told it couldn't be done without him sitting the flight test for the NVFR. Previous experience was irrelevant, for the rating to be issued the requirements are a flight test.

[Roger Copy Ta]

Cheers Zhaadum. The rules are a shambled mess but you've managed to get some structure there.

Appreciate your effort Makes more sense now.


Excuse my ignorance, but why would you want to down grade to VFR while on a IFR flight? What are the advantages?

[Zhaadum]

Roger Copy Ta,

I can't think of any advantages during a flight to downgrade to VFR.
Services are less, no traffic info OCTA unless you ask and that is workload
dependant. IFR is so much easier!

The only 2 situations I can think of when you may wish to depart NVFR is:

1. The boss wants to skimp on the $2.50 of enroute nav charges and ferry
an aircraft at night VFR for a IFR charter the next day , or

2. You have a required IFR instrument (ie pitot heat) go U/S and the
WX is suitable for NVFR, you have the required recency and aeronautical
experience, then you can fly NVFR to get home.

Otherwise you are stuck either till the snag is fixed or, the next day
comes and the WX is ok for VFR.

Cheers,

Z.

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

"... but why would you want to down grade to VFR while on a IFR flight?"

Cause you can't maintain continuous 2-way comms with Centre.

Dr

[Cap'n Arrr]

Zhaadum and FTDK are on the money... NVFR is less restrictive WRT equipment/reporting/minimas, and there are a few occasions you may come across where the flight cannot be continued IFR, but it can NVFR.

Also WRT NVFR training with a CIR, you need to meet both RECENT and TOTAL AERONAUTICAL experience for the NVFR to do it (or to fly NVFR under a CIR at all for that matter). You basically need to be able to apply to do a NVFR test if you want to in order to fly NVFR with an instrument rating, in which case I would suggest you find a testing officer and just do the test, since the NVFR is perpetual, and if the CIR expires you lose all night privileges.

Arrrr