circuit heights
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circuit heights
Am curious to hear of others feelings on the two main circuit heights now used in OZ, 1000ft & 1500ft depending on A/C speeds.(AGL of course)
I'm starting my descent (fm 1500ft) from say abeam the Ldg threshold & "Joe" pilot is beneath me at 1000ft. At some point we will be at the same height prior to Ldg (providing it's a stable app) only I won't see him 'till perhaps right on top of him! All this is of course with perhaps the lower guy not having R/T capabilities in a non CTAF/R
Good subject for debate am sure.
capt Wally :-)
I'm starting my descent (fm 1500ft) from say abeam the Ldg threshold & "Joe" pilot is beneath me at 1000ft. At some point we will be at the same height prior to Ldg (providing it's a stable app) only I won't see him 'till perhaps right on top of him! All this is of course with perhaps the lower guy not having R/T capabilities in a non CTAF/R
Good subject for debate am sure.
capt Wally :-)
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I think what Wally is getting at, is the guy/gal at 1000' may be in your twelve o'clock low, the you descend and catch up to him/her!
Anyway I thought the guy with no radio (ie: LSA, Ultralight) was at 500'? Still doesn't help though, you have to go through his level at some stage too!
Anyway I thought the guy with no radio (ie: LSA, Ultralight) was at 500'? Still doesn't help though, you have to go through his level at some stage too!
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............sure 'dreamjob' but i could be back at min speed say 120 kts & 'Joe' could be close to that making our ground speeds very close. There's obviously a lot of other factors that could come into play here such as circling distances for various cats. It's also based on turbo-prop & jet types as well as speeds.But we all end up at the same place (the threshold) it's juust the bit before it that can concern:-)
Yr comment "you would think" is where a potential problem lies. Anyway am wanting to hear of others thoughts. I'd rather hear of others adventures rather than someone saying "you should".
I don't want this to become a slanging match, just some debate on the pros & cons of this topic:-)
capt Wally
Yr comment "you would think" is where a potential problem lies. Anyway am wanting to hear of others thoughts. I'd rather hear of others adventures rather than someone saying "you should".
I don't want this to become a slanging match, just some debate on the pros & cons of this topic:-)
capt Wally
Where I work we generally start the descent from 1500ft AGL on Base, but have a slightly wider circuit. The traffic should!!!! be inside of you.... should!!! is the word of caution....
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Capt Wal,
I'm pretty sure the 1000' cct was designed to keep the low performance singles away from the higher performance guys. If you're min speed is 120kts, that's a closure rate of 45kts on the PA28 doing 75kias on base, ie around 1500m/min closure. So in order for you to descend on top of him, at some point he was in front of you and you must give way. At the said rate of closure, even at the highly visible range of 250m, you still have 10 seconds to avoid a collision.
These smaller guys also fly a tighter curcuit generally so they should be inside you until finals.
I guess nothing replaces what ToweringQ refers to as the "Mark I Eyeball". Sadly, with the recent tragedy of that ultralight being "run down" on finals, curcuit heights were irrelevant.
I'm pretty sure the 1000' cct was designed to keep the low performance singles away from the higher performance guys. If you're min speed is 120kts, that's a closure rate of 45kts on the PA28 doing 75kias on base, ie around 1500m/min closure. So in order for you to descend on top of him, at some point he was in front of you and you must give way. At the said rate of closure, even at the highly visible range of 250m, you still have 10 seconds to avoid a collision.
These smaller guys also fly a tighter curcuit generally so they should be inside you until finals.
I guess nothing replaces what ToweringQ refers to as the "Mark I Eyeball". Sadly, with the recent tragedy of that ultralight being "run down" on finals, curcuit heights were irrelevant.
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Cptn Wally
Have you had a problem yet? I know I have not, it appears to work for me so far. I know I was against the changes BUT maybe Dick was right ( I hate saying that) but can we be big enough to admit it?
Kickatinalong.
Kickatinalong.
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.........guys & gals we could have a situation here where the lower guy is a C210 & something faster perhaps flying at 120 kts dowwind. So I am fully aware that if there was a closure rate of say 45 kts then that situation maybe more suitable for seeing each othere. But it's not all like that. Yr correct 'smokinghole' that was the original idea.There's other considerations like local rules as in everyone flying over a fixed object for tracking purposes say prior to turning final 'cause of houses etc. thus making the lower guy being in the same place at perhaps the same time just a little lower & out of sight of myself despite perhaps a speed difference.
And yes "kick" I've had numerous occasions where this situation has arisen but fortunetly airmanship & correct R/T saved the day at the last moment, but as we have seen sadly recently at LTV that may not always be the case.
Good healthy debate can result in better awareness am sure
capt wally:-)
And yes "kick" I've had numerous occasions where this situation has arisen but fortunetly airmanship & correct R/T saved the day at the last moment, but as we have seen sadly recently at LTV that may not always be the case.
Good healthy debate can result in better awareness am sure
capt wally:-)
These smaller guys also fly a tighter curcuit generally so they should be inside you until finals.
Yeah, right!
I came into Toowoomba this afternoon in the Bonanza at 1500' AGL behind a C172 on downwind at 1000'.
He turned base just this side of Roma!
I could have easily turned inside him, landed and cleared the runway before he turned finals.
I don't know who teaches people this crap!
Dr
Yeah, right!
I came into Toowoomba this afternoon in the Bonanza at 1500' AGL behind a C172 on downwind at 1000'.
He turned base just this side of Roma!
I could have easily turned inside him, landed and cleared the runway before he turned finals.
I don't know who teaches people this crap!
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These smaller guys also fly a tighter curcuit generally so they should be inside you until finals.
All that stuff in the bonanza but you don't have TCAS?
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cleared the runway before he turned finals.
I don't know who teaches people this crap!
I don't know who teaches people this crap!
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What happened to 'see and avoid'? Appreciate what you guys are posting but after countless years of operating into CTAF's/ MBZ's have never....NEVER had a problem. Have had to extend downwind more times than I care to remember but it's not ever been a problem. Just sharing the airspace. WTF!!!
Edit.....I'm sure some of you guys are simply itching for something to bitch about. FMD...Grow up. Your making us look like twats. And before you post in humiliation have a think....or just post me. What rubbish...
D
Edit.....I'm sure some of you guys are simply itching for something to bitch about. FMD...Grow up. Your making us look like twats. And before you post in humiliation have a think....or just post me. What rubbish...
D
I think you guys should look up the old thread on this.
The main point that wories me is that un-alerted (ie no radio) is orders of magnitude poorer than alerted see and avoid.
I don't understand in this day and age why radios and calls are not mandatory for all flying objects.
The main point that wories me is that un-alerted (ie no radio) is orders of magnitude poorer than alerted see and avoid.
I don't understand in this day and age why radios and calls are not mandatory for all flying objects.
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"Sunfish" I couldn't agree with you more about all flying objects having radios. But the main problem here is about how there used & when, what's lacking is perhaps something called education.
Fortunetly most flying objects have radios but some use them in such an unprofessional manor that that alone causes more problems than not having one at all. Wrong position calls whether it be the wrong quadrant when calling inbound to simply talking on the radio as tho they are at the bar on a friday night telling everyone a short story !
I know it's never going to be perfect but we can all do it better am sure:-)
"Defenestrator" "see & avoid is almost everything these days in a circuit, no ones disputing that but it's not always possible to keep an eye out the window for an object that can change it's aspect at a seconds notice esspecially in varying light conditions as perhaps turning final into a setting sun. The R/T's are just as important in "building" a mental picture as to where someone is in the circuit. I started this thread in order for people in here to perhaps give their views on the subject matter & tell of some pertinent stories or experiences so that we may learn a little more, not to have anyone lower themselves to subject pilots to personal abuse.
EVERYONE who holds a license to fly is considered a professional, lets extend that priviledge to words in here. I expected (sadly) for some to 'have a go' at others in here but can we just stick to the subject matter please.
Capt Wally :-)
Fortunetly most flying objects have radios but some use them in such an unprofessional manor that that alone causes more problems than not having one at all. Wrong position calls whether it be the wrong quadrant when calling inbound to simply talking on the radio as tho they are at the bar on a friday night telling everyone a short story !
I know it's never going to be perfect but we can all do it better am sure:-)
"Defenestrator" "see & avoid is almost everything these days in a circuit, no ones disputing that but it's not always possible to keep an eye out the window for an object that can change it's aspect at a seconds notice esspecially in varying light conditions as perhaps turning final into a setting sun. The R/T's are just as important in "building" a mental picture as to where someone is in the circuit. I started this thread in order for people in here to perhaps give their views on the subject matter & tell of some pertinent stories or experiences so that we may learn a little more, not to have anyone lower themselves to subject pilots to personal abuse.
EVERYONE who holds a license to fly is considered a professional, lets extend that priviledge to words in here
. I expected (sadly) for some to 'have a go' at others in here but can we just stick to the subject matter please.Capt Wally :-)
I have noticed a worrying trend amongst some private pilots (not all I stress) to simply make the standard circuit calls "parrot fashion" if you like, without seeing a larger picture!
Case in point. Taxiing at a country aerodrome we make the mandatory calls. One aircraft is in the circuit doing touch and goes and making all his mandatory calls on the CTAF frequency. Another one inbound at 5 miles makes his standard call also on the CTAF frequency. So far so good. We call the inbound aircraft to clarify his intentions. Before he can answer, blogs in the circuit overtransmits the inbound aircraft's reply with his own turning base call! I politely ask blogs to standby while we ask the inbound aircraft to "say again". Before he can answer a second time, blogs overtransmits him again, this time during his turning final call! Now less politely I ask blogs to refrain from further transmissions untill we get an answer from the inbound aircraft.
As we depart, blogs calls me up and asks what was all that about. I point out what I thought was the bleeding obvious. His response was, "Oh! Was there another aircraft in the circuit?" And yes we were all on the one correct frequency!
I'm sad to say that this is not an isolated incident. A busy OCTA aerodrome can be a very fluid and dynamic place. Unless you are properly trained to deal with that reality, you have no place being there unless accompanied by a competent instructor. It's not rocket science. If you can be trained to fly an aeroplane, you should at least be trained to have some idea of what else is going on around you!
If you can't, (and lets face it some people fit into this category) then do us all a favour and stay on the ground.
Case in point. Taxiing at a country aerodrome we make the mandatory calls. One aircraft is in the circuit doing touch and goes and making all his mandatory calls on the CTAF frequency. Another one inbound at 5 miles makes his standard call also on the CTAF frequency. So far so good. We call the inbound aircraft to clarify his intentions. Before he can answer, blogs in the circuit overtransmits the inbound aircraft's reply with his own turning base call! I politely ask blogs to standby while we ask the inbound aircraft to "say again". Before he can answer a second time, blogs overtransmits him again, this time during his turning final call! Now less politely I ask blogs to refrain from further transmissions untill we get an answer from the inbound aircraft.
As we depart, blogs calls me up and asks what was all that about. I point out what I thought was the bleeding obvious. His response was, "Oh! Was there another aircraft in the circuit?" And yes we were all on the one correct frequency!
I'm sad to say that this is not an isolated incident. A busy OCTA aerodrome can be a very fluid and dynamic place. Unless you are properly trained to deal with that reality, you have no place being there unless accompanied by a competent instructor. It's not rocket science. If you can be trained to fly an aeroplane, you should at least be trained to have some idea of what else is going on around you!
If you can't, (and lets face it some people fit into this category) then do us all a favour and stay on the ground.
Case in point. Taxiing at a country aerodrome we make the mandatory calls. One aircraft is in the circuit doing touch and goes and making all his mandatory calls on the CTAF frequency. Another one inbound at 5 miles makes his standard call also on the CTAF frequency. So far so good. We call the inbound aircraft to clarify his intentions. Before he can answer, blogs in the circuit overtransmits the inbound aircraft's reply with his own turning base call! I politely ask blogs to standby while we ask the inbound aircraft to "say again". Before he can answer a second time, blogs overtransmits him again, this time during his turning final call! Now less politely I ask blogs to refrain from further transmissions untill we get an answer from the inbound aircraft.
Gone are the days where you would have a complete understanding of r/t and other aspects of nav before you went anywhere PIC.
This kind of thing in your example happens every day at airports popular with schools for early nav solo, in nsw places like ybth, yglb, ycnk & ymnd.
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ymnd & ycnk
Its near impossible to get a call in at ymnd some days,having the same frequency as ycnk and all the fun they're having over there and all 
you never know who's transmitted over you so see and avoid it is
aldee
you never know who's transmitted over you so see and avoid it is
aldee