The F-111 is an interesting bit of kit!
Man Bilong Balus long PNG
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I'm going to stick my neck out here, but a number of years ago I worked with a Pom whose Father was employed in the program, who claimed that the TSR2 (which was unfortunately cancelled by the then Labour [That's how the poms spell it!!] government of the day) would have been superior in most if not all respects to the F111 and probably with further development would have continued to be so!
Anyone out there have any info which may or may not confirm?
Anyone out there have any info which may or may not confirm?
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Yeah Pinky I've heard that too... th eirony apparently was that the TSR2 was cancelled in favour of an order of F111Ks (as the pom version was to be designated).
When that didn't happen, the RAF had to hang onto several types - Lightning, Bucc (all good, but even then getting a bit long in the tooth) until the Tornado came along. And that was apparently beset by compromises to suit the Panavia partners (Germany and Italy). A fine aircraft, but I'd suggest not a patch on the Pig.
Actually that's a good question - have Pigs & Tornados ever mixed it up, eg. at Nellis?
(I hope this link works):
Here is a Google Map of one on the ground at Ohakea.
When that didn't happen, the RAF had to hang onto several types - Lightning, Bucc (all good, but even then getting a bit long in the tooth) until the Tornado came along. And that was apparently beset by compromises to suit the Panavia partners (Germany and Italy). A fine aircraft, but I'd suggest not a patch on the Pig.
Actually that's a good question - have Pigs & Tornados ever mixed it up, eg. at Nellis?
(I hope this link works):
Here is a Google Map of one on the ground at Ohakea.
Last edited by Taildragger67; 23rd Nov 2007 at 17:08.
Ahh, the old TSR2 chestnut...!
I was waiting with baited breath for this one to pop-up!!!
Let me, if I may be so bold, to express my opinion on the matter of the infamous claims of "superiority" of the TSR2 over, well, every aircraft that has ever existed.
Firstly, I would like to retort in Haiku:
Fabled British Plane,
Uglier Than Sin Itself,
Total Piece Of Sh!t
And, if the meaning of the Haiku is too obscure for some, here is a metaphor I think is very appropriate: About 40 years ago, whilst out fishing in a tinnie in Port Phillip Bay, I caught a Blue Whale using 10 pound line and a hand reel. You may not have seen this but, trust me when I tell you (and my friend's brother Davo who was on the tinnie will back me up) it was without out a doubt the greatest fishing event EVER. Okay, now when I say I caught the whale, whilst not ever actually landing it on the tinnie (the fisheries department came along just as I was hauling it in & demanded I release it immediately) it was as good as in the boat. And when I say I hooked it, well, it never actually took the bait, but it gave it a loooong hard look. And when I say it was a blue whale, well, it er, umm... looked like a blue whale. It may have in fact been a flathead... but it was (may have been) a BIG one!! TRUST ME!
My point is this. Everyone has a "one that got away" story that grows in stature as the years pass. The TSR2 story seems to posess an especially exaggerated list of capabilities. I understand the fervour and national pride stirred up in people when it comes to home grown products, but, there has to be a "realism" element in assessing an aircraft that never proceeded pass the prototype stage!!. Yes I know it was politics that eventually killed the thing but come on, there wasn't any shortage of problems with it either!! Undercarriage, engines (serious problems with the Olympus fit in the TSR2 from memory) and as a result an almost entirely theoretical list of specs.
DISCLAIMER: I have flown the Pig hence have a soft spot for it, & of course I never flew the TSR 2. (nor do I know anyone who did). Also, I am no Aero Eng or TP but I reckon I'm a good judge of "horse flesh", and the old adage that "if it looks good it flies good" is true more often than not. Based on this and an up close and personal inspection of the airframe at Duxford Air Museum I feel confident in saying that the TSR2 was/would have been a total frickin' dog!!.
For a tactical/interdiction strike aircraft this thing was ENORMOUS...
* with a hideous slab sided rectangular fuselage and the smallest freakin' wing area for an aircraft of its size I have ever seen!!
* For its size (about 20% larger than a Pig) its internal weapons bay (an overly complex arrangement if ever there was one) was quite small.
* The tiny wings probably resulted in a wing loading higher than that of an F-104 (and we all know how well that turns!) and were clearly incapable of carrying large external stores, IF anything at all.
* Landing Gear?? I think you could have completed a Rubik's cube before the complex arrangement would have retracted.
*The Olympus engines, impressively large and powerful as they were, would have chewed through the juice like a fat chick with a Maccas shake and
any substantial fuel reserves (which I don't think it had) would have been for nought.
Anyway, the TSR2 is dead... Long live the TSR2!!
Let me, if I may be so bold, to express my opinion on the matter of the infamous claims of "superiority" of the TSR2 over, well, every aircraft that has ever existed.
Firstly, I would like to retort in Haiku:
Fabled British Plane,
Uglier Than Sin Itself,
Total Piece Of Sh!t
And, if the meaning of the Haiku is too obscure for some, here is a metaphor I think is very appropriate: About 40 years ago, whilst out fishing in a tinnie in Port Phillip Bay, I caught a Blue Whale using 10 pound line and a hand reel. You may not have seen this but, trust me when I tell you (and my friend's brother Davo who was on the tinnie will back me up) it was without out a doubt the greatest fishing event EVER. Okay, now when I say I caught the whale, whilst not ever actually landing it on the tinnie (the fisheries department came along just as I was hauling it in & demanded I release it immediately) it was as good as in the boat. And when I say I hooked it, well, it never actually took the bait, but it gave it a loooong hard look. And when I say it was a blue whale, well, it er, umm... looked like a blue whale. It may have in fact been a flathead... but it was (may have been) a BIG one!! TRUST ME!
My point is this. Everyone has a "one that got away" story that grows in stature as the years pass. The TSR2 story seems to posess an especially exaggerated list of capabilities. I understand the fervour and national pride stirred up in people when it comes to home grown products, but, there has to be a "realism" element in assessing an aircraft that never proceeded pass the prototype stage!!. Yes I know it was politics that eventually killed the thing but come on, there wasn't any shortage of problems with it either!! Undercarriage, engines (serious problems with the Olympus fit in the TSR2 from memory) and as a result an almost entirely theoretical list of specs.
DISCLAIMER: I have flown the Pig hence have a soft spot for it, & of course I never flew the TSR 2. (nor do I know anyone who did). Also, I am no Aero Eng or TP but I reckon I'm a good judge of "horse flesh", and the old adage that "if it looks good it flies good" is true more often than not. Based on this and an up close and personal inspection of the airframe at Duxford Air Museum I feel confident in saying that the TSR2 was/would have been a total frickin' dog!!.
For a tactical/interdiction strike aircraft this thing was ENORMOUS...
* with a hideous slab sided rectangular fuselage and the smallest freakin' wing area for an aircraft of its size I have ever seen!!
* For its size (about 20% larger than a Pig) its internal weapons bay (an overly complex arrangement if ever there was one) was quite small.
* The tiny wings probably resulted in a wing loading higher than that of an F-104 (and we all know how well that turns!) and were clearly incapable of carrying large external stores, IF anything at all.
* Landing Gear?? I think you could have completed a Rubik's cube before the complex arrangement would have retracted.
*The Olympus engines, impressively large and powerful as they were, would have chewed through the juice like a fat chick with a Maccas shake and
any substantial fuel reserves (which I don't think it had) would have been for nought.
Anyway, the TSR2 is dead... Long live the TSR2!!
Last edited by Booger; 25th Nov 2007 at 09:51. Reason: Clarity!
What do you really think, Booger?
Bloody Hell! 
Pleeeease...no one mention Eurofighter...I beleive Booger may have a demure, mild and unpassionate opinion on the virtues of that particular aircraft as well...
Incidently I think Carlo always offers balanced, informed and insightful opinions and I think he brings value to any discussion on Australian airpower. Discuss....
Pleeeease...no one mention Eurofighter...I beleive Booger may have a demure, mild and unpassionate opinion on the virtues of that particular aircraft as well...
Incidently I think Carlo always offers balanced, informed and insightful opinions and I think he brings value to any discussion on Australian airpower. Discuss....
Man Bilong Balus long PNG
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Very good Booger but a little heavy on the sarcasm I should think.
I would'nt have a clue on the subject m'self! I was merely repeating what this pommy bloke told me of his Father's comments. His Dad was apparently an aeronautical engineer with the TSR2 program, so I took the comments at face value.
I would'nt have a clue on the subject m'self! I was merely repeating what this pommy bloke told me of his Father's comments. His Dad was apparently an aeronautical engineer with the TSR2 program, so I took the comments at face value.
Come on, everyone is entitled to their own opinion and hey, Booger just sounds passionate to me, and what the aviation industry without passion?
I only worked WITH the F111 and most say I have an huge soft spot for it, so I can't even begin to think how passionate someone who actually flew the thing would be!
Now back on subject. At the end of the day TSR2 never made it to a production phase, let alone past the first BUP or two. So the argument is really moot.
There really isn't anything that will match the F111 when it comes to "bang for your buck", but as discussed earlier this is no longer our primary focus and I'd be surprised with we ever see anything like the F111 again, except maybe in the form of a UACV.
I know that when that inevitable day comes and the F111 retires, there will be barely a dry eye at RAAF Amberley.
I only worked WITH the F111 and most say I have an huge soft spot for it, so I can't even begin to think how passionate someone who actually flew the thing would be!
Now back on subject. At the end of the day TSR2 never made it to a production phase, let alone past the first BUP or two. So the argument is really moot.
There really isn't anything that will match the F111 when it comes to "bang for your buck", but as discussed earlier this is no longer our primary focus and I'd be surprised with we ever see anything like the F111 again, except maybe in the form of a UACV.
I know that when that inevitable day comes and the F111 retires, there will be barely a dry eye at RAAF Amberley.
Evertonian
I think it's sad that, whilst we may want an aircraft with the F111's capability & modern avionics/compatibility thrown in, we just cannot build one ourselves.
That boat sailed long ago.
That boat sailed long ago.
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1452 Kts Groundspeed is the fastest I have seen. - and yes it was in a Pig. [Mach2.5 and accellerating ](Not on the deck mind you - I only seem to recall 705K G/S - Not the record, but at least we did it for 300 miles!, somewhere off the Phillipines ISTR) However, on the deck, I have been faster, just never looked down to check - little busy doing the lookout piece whilst the radalt pings 90' - oops. Pity we had to slow down a tad to drop some of the 'old school' bombs we had in the '80s and '90s. ....and yes the F model would hum - but not quite for as long as the 'C'. At height, I'm convinced it (F-111C) would have done M3.....(probably about the time the paint would have melted). F111F is a little slower at height.
Sighhhhhh......thanks for that LJR. I heard that was quite regular to have a Pig come back with a bit less paint (Sometimes a panel or two) after a refit.
Still reckon pound for pound the Pig will throw more ordinance down range a lot further than any version of an 18.
Still reckon pound for pound the Pig will throw more ordinance down range a lot further than any version of an 18.
Why yes they have..!
Taildragger,
for your edification, yes indeed the Tornado (GR4) and Pig have mixed it up in Flag/Nellis. I had the pleasure of participating in several such flights a couple of years ago. Whilst not going "head to head" (as strike aircraft it's a little hard to do that!) I have been in the same package as the Tornado boys... Magnificent operators who can teach the Aussies several thousand things about real world ops BUT, (antipodean pride causes me to puff my chest out here!) somewhat hamstrung by the tiddly-wink toy they call the "Tonka"!!!
Allow me to amplify by way of anecdote: My naviguesser for our Red Flag deployment happened to be an exchange RAF officer from the same GR4 squadron we were tasked to operate with. On one particular mission where we planned to egress a target in trail of said Tornado 5-ship, my Nav gave the RAF boys some shtick and told them we would "smoke them" on the way home. Of course, these boys were not about to be intimidated by a fourship of Piggies crewed by 7-criminals and one traitorous comrade. "We'll show you a clean pair of heels" came the Tornado CO's reply. Of course, my Nav "ordered" me to "blow them away at frickin' zot feet & x-thousand knots" in order to show the Pommie boys how we do it in Oz.
"OK" was my reply, knowing full well that post target egress plans often turn-to-poo as a result of Red Air stirring up the sh!te. Anyway, on this particular day we came off target and lo and behold, there were the Tonkas, being led by my Nav's former CO, right on track. Egged on by said Nav, who by this stage was screaming like a schoolboy at his first strip show, the 'burners were lit and away we went. Our four Piggies went below & between the GR4s and the one & only time I was game to look inside I saw 785knots and 200ft. Needless to say we went past Tornados like they were standing still. And kept going. And going. I think we ended up super for about 10 minutes... Not so unusual for the Pig but we were also so close to Area 51 I swear we could see the aliens with their glow sticks as we blasted by!!!
When we landed, my Nav was grinning like the proverbial Cheshire cat - and no prizes for guessing that he gave the RAF boys more than a few words in the deber..!
Before anyone accuses me of one-eyedness. I will stress the GR4 is a good machine, just a little hamstrung by limited fuel and an almost permanent requirement to carry external tanks, thereby further restricting the jet's performance. Oh, and Al, if you're reading this... Best. Mission. Ever!!
for your edification, yes indeed the Tornado (GR4) and Pig have mixed it up in Flag/Nellis. I had the pleasure of participating in several such flights a couple of years ago. Whilst not going "head to head" (as strike aircraft it's a little hard to do that!) I have been in the same package as the Tornado boys... Magnificent operators who can teach the Aussies several thousand things about real world ops BUT, (antipodean pride causes me to puff my chest out here!) somewhat hamstrung by the tiddly-wink toy they call the "Tonka"!!!
Allow me to amplify by way of anecdote: My naviguesser for our Red Flag deployment happened to be an exchange RAF officer from the same GR4 squadron we were tasked to operate with. On one particular mission where we planned to egress a target in trail of said Tornado 5-ship, my Nav gave the RAF boys some shtick and told them we would "smoke them" on the way home. Of course, these boys were not about to be intimidated by a fourship of Piggies crewed by 7-criminals and one traitorous comrade. "We'll show you a clean pair of heels" came the Tornado CO's reply. Of course, my Nav "ordered" me to "blow them away at frickin' zot feet & x-thousand knots" in order to show the Pommie boys how we do it in Oz.
"OK" was my reply, knowing full well that post target egress plans often turn-to-poo as a result of Red Air stirring up the sh!te. Anyway, on this particular day we came off target and lo and behold, there were the Tonkas, being led by my Nav's former CO, right on track. Egged on by said Nav, who by this stage was screaming like a schoolboy at his first strip show, the 'burners were lit and away we went. Our four Piggies went below & between the GR4s and the one & only time I was game to look inside I saw 785knots and 200ft. Needless to say we went past Tornados like they were standing still. And kept going. And going. I think we ended up super for about 10 minutes... Not so unusual for the Pig but we were also so close to Area 51 I swear we could see the aliens with their glow sticks as we blasted by!!!
When we landed, my Nav was grinning like the proverbial Cheshire cat - and no prizes for guessing that he gave the RAF boys more than a few words in the deber..!
Before anyone accuses me of one-eyedness. I will stress the GR4 is a good machine, just a little hamstrung by limited fuel and an almost permanent requirement to carry external tanks, thereby further restricting the jet's performance. Oh, and Al, if you're reading this... Best. Mission. Ever!!
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Booger I think you'll find the Tonkas were just cruising home. 
In a straight race using burner, a Tonka will smoke an F111 at low level. The Red Flag kill rate of Tornado F3 vs F111 was about 20 to 1 in favour of the Tornado.
In a straight race using burner, a Tonka will smoke an F111 at low level. The Red Flag kill rate of Tornado F3 vs F111 was about 20 to 1 in favour of the Tornado.
Nunc est bibendum
I was talking to a QF colleague (former 3SQN FCI) once about the Avalon airshow and watching the Tornado putting on a great low pass and break out. His response was '.....only aeroplane to go 6G in a straight line....'
I guess the Tornado turning circle ain't that flash!
Booger. Great story. Keep them coming!
I guess the Tornado turning circle ain't that flash!
Booger. Great story. Keep them coming!
Evertonian
Well, I enjoyed the anecdote too. Thanks Booger!
Now, for Clarie's benefit, does anyone have an anecdote about an F111 outrunning a Saturn V???
Now, for Clarie's benefit, does anyone have an anecdote about an F111 outrunning a Saturn V???
Sheeee-it Clarie, ya' gotta let it go!!
Clarie... maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaate...!
I know you did the F3 exchange, but sheesh... "a Tornado would SMOKE a Pig at low-level"..!?!??! Mate, can I have some of that stuff you're smoking??
For starters, I was talking GR4, as evidenced by the multiple (and clearly cryptic) references to GR4 vice F3. Out of the 4 or so RAAF drivers I know who did the GR1/4 exhange, only one had EVER been supersonic in the thing!! And that was at high level!!! The reason??? They were ALWAYS carrying jugs/skyshadow/CBLS/whatever else that was either: a. Not rated super OR b. so draggy as to physically prevent them ever going super.
And yes, I am prepared to concede that an F3 may even have the LL top speed to (barely) trump the Piggy, but surely even you must acknowledge that without your jugs you could do that for about 10secs before you Bingo out... As opposed to the 10+ mins in the beast!
20 to 1 kill - ratio? Yeah, yeah I know, the B-111 is a "4G Sparrow suckin' piece of sh!t.." but come on - I would expect it to be MORE, the F3 is a "fighter" after all!!! I mean, that implies that at least one Pig nailed an F3 - there hasn't been anything that embarassing since Carloss was shot by that chick in the Mirage!!!
The only other time I recall that many F3 kills was in PB2000... when after a similarly disconcertingly high kill ratio some investigation revealed the F3 boys were claiming outrageously low PK shots as kills, based on the "future software upgrade we'll be getting". Turns out that without the <insert certain type of mid-course guidance technique here> they were using the "Malaysian stopwatch" method...
Bastards wouldn't even buy the beers at the bar for all their false kill calls!
Anyway, no more p!ssing contests for me tonight. That train has sailed.
Booyakasha knuck-boy!!!!
I know you did the F3 exchange, but sheesh... "a Tornado would SMOKE a Pig at low-level"..!?!??! Mate, can I have some of that stuff you're smoking??
For starters, I was talking GR4, as evidenced by the multiple (and clearly cryptic) references to GR4 vice F3. Out of the 4 or so RAAF drivers I know who did the GR1/4 exhange, only one had EVER been supersonic in the thing!! And that was at high level!!! The reason??? They were ALWAYS carrying jugs/skyshadow/CBLS/whatever else that was either: a. Not rated super OR b. so draggy as to physically prevent them ever going super.
And yes, I am prepared to concede that an F3 may even have the LL top speed to (barely) trump the Piggy, but surely even you must acknowledge that without your jugs you could do that for about 10secs before you Bingo out... As opposed to the 10+ mins in the beast!
20 to 1 kill - ratio? Yeah, yeah I know, the B-111 is a "4G Sparrow suckin' piece of sh!t.." but come on - I would expect it to be MORE, the F3 is a "fighter" after all!!! I mean, that implies that at least one Pig nailed an F3 - there hasn't been anything that embarassing since Carloss was shot by that chick in the Mirage!!!
The only other time I recall that many F3 kills was in PB2000... when after a similarly disconcertingly high kill ratio some investigation revealed the F3 boys were claiming outrageously low PK shots as kills, based on the "future software upgrade we'll be getting". Turns out that without the <insert certain type of mid-course guidance technique here> they were using the "Malaysian stopwatch" method...
Bastards wouldn't even buy the beers at the bar for all their false kill calls!
Anyway, no more p!ssing contests for me tonight. That train has sailed.
Booyakasha knuck-boy!!!!