The F-111 is an interesting bit of kit!
Not wanting to get flamed here, I have to say first up, I worked with the F111, there is NO aircraft I am more amazed by than this "beautiful" creature... BUT....
There is no one reason to replace them, however there are a few main ones.
1. Airframes - they ARE getting a little old and unfortunately they have a finite life and it will just get more and more expensive to keep them flying. We have a fair few F111's we've bought from the bone yards (check out RAAF Amberley google maps, and you'll see some of them near the flight line
) However we can only canibalise them for so long. But the finite life is not the ultimate arguement.
2. Australia has invested considerable money (BILLIONS) in an integrated force, one of the big ones being Wedgetail. This will allow all our forced to be integrated via an extensive network, with pilots getting live feeds from ground crew on targets, command centres providing live tatics, allies providing intelligence we migh not have etc etc
The F111 is not currently an EW (Electronic Warefare) platform and the upgrades to it would be very expensive, so when you take in to consideration the cost of maintaining them and their finite life then it becomes economically unviable.
The super hornet and the JSF are EW ready and come with standardised software and hardware.
I guess the arguement could be simplified down to the 747/A380/A340 vs. 777/787/A350 arguement... Yes four engines are better than two, and yes a larger a/c can move more people from A to B... but companies strategires change and all of a sudden the two engine ETOPS operations start winning out... Time will tell if they were right or not.
Just my two cents.
There is no one reason to replace them, however there are a few main ones.
1. Airframes - they ARE getting a little old and unfortunately they have a finite life and it will just get more and more expensive to keep them flying. We have a fair few F111's we've bought from the bone yards (check out RAAF Amberley google maps, and you'll see some of them near the flight line
) However we can only canibalise them for so long. But the finite life is not the ultimate arguement.2. Australia has invested considerable money (BILLIONS) in an integrated force, one of the big ones being Wedgetail. This will allow all our forced to be integrated via an extensive network, with pilots getting live feeds from ground crew on targets, command centres providing live tatics, allies providing intelligence we migh not have etc etc
The F111 is not currently an EW (Electronic Warefare) platform and the upgrades to it would be very expensive, so when you take in to consideration the cost of maintaining them and their finite life then it becomes economically unviable.
The super hornet and the JSF are EW ready and come with standardised software and hardware.
I guess the arguement could be simplified down to the 747/A380/A340 vs. 777/787/A350 arguement... Yes four engines are better than two, and yes a larger a/c can move more people from A to B... but companies strategires change and all of a sudden the two engine ETOPS operations start winning out... Time will tell if they were right or not.
Just my two cents.
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Defenestrator,
Agree your last sentiment (about being 18 again, with all the choices in the world ahead of you)...
Mate a youngster could do worse than go into the mil' for tertiary studies - ADFA has gained a solid reputation in its 20 years now and has pumped out some fine, educated officers. But, there are also opportunities to get mil' sponsorship whilst completing tertiary studies outside ADFA - eg. for law or medicine.
IMHO, the main negative is, depending on the service and branch chosen, these days one has to balance the benefits with the increasing risk of being sent into harm's way in skirmishes which might be forgotten about in a few years...
Agree your last sentiment (about being 18 again, with all the choices in the world ahead of you)...
Mate a youngster could do worse than go into the mil' for tertiary studies - ADFA has gained a solid reputation in its 20 years now and has pumped out some fine, educated officers. But, there are also opportunities to get mil' sponsorship whilst completing tertiary studies outside ADFA - eg. for law or medicine.
IMHO, the main negative is, depending on the service and branch chosen, these days one has to balance the benefits with the increasing risk of being sent into harm's way in skirmishes which might be forgotten about in a few years...
Evertonian
...So long as they can adjust to civvy street TD. I've seen some shockers over the years! (No worse than the regular "chip on shoulder" graduates mind you!)
So if the F111 airframe is so good, why cant new ones be built with a derivative of the F22, F25.F18E avionics. New airframe, modern engines and electrics would be a fearsome weapon.
What would be the closest equivalent. F15E?
What would be the closest equivalent. F15E?
So if the F111 airframe is so good, why cant new ones be built with a derivative of the F22, F25.F18E avionics. New airframe, modern engines and electrics would be a fearsome weapon.
Plus the development costs for such an aircraft are not trivial.
Also, most aircraft developments have been leaning towards multi role functions, such as the Super Hornet.
What would be the closest equivalent. F15E?
Not sure what you'd classify an equivalent platform... All I can think of is maybe a B1... but that is MUCH bigger, is faster and carries more bombs, not to mention requires more crew. And at around a BILLION $ a piece a little out of Australia's price range! Plus I don't think they are something the US will export.
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All I can think of is maybe a B1... but that is MUCH bigger, is faster and carries more bombs
I was seriously impressed by the impromtu 'Bone' display post-Avalon 2001 as it was leaving, and had a few drinks with the crew during the previous week...they all fly commerically (mostly freight Pilots) then fly the Bone in the weekend for fun...
...one can only dream
LP
WannaBe, I enjoy your factual and well thought out posts, but to put this into perspective...
Is the SU29/30 any more stealthy?
Apples and apples and all.
Regards,
OpsN.
Because the F111 is NOT a stealth aircraft
Apples and apples and all.
Regards,
OpsN.
Thanks OpsNormal,
what I meant in regards to the stealth capabilities is that all NEW developments that come out of the likes of Boeing and LM are stealthy or at least have a low radar signature.
Even if we took all the drawings of the fuselage, you'd still be left to create 10's or 100's of thousands (millions?) of new drawings to include the new avionics, engine, probably redesign the gear because it really doesn't need a gear that can sustain a carrier landing, which would then probably give some room for an extra equipment bay, fuel tank or even bomb storage... so your not talking a simple "plug and play" scenario, hence major expense and time would be required to develop a new aircraft from an existing airframe design.
Now if the market (Aust and Allies) dictates the need for a stealthy aircraft, you'd still be delivering an aircraft with all the bells and whistles in an old airframe that the market most likely not want.
Money well spent? Probably not, and that's why it hasn't been redeveloped.
And don't forget that when the new F111-X is finally ready for mass production our potential foes will, at the very least, be in the processed of adapting new radar, missile and stealth technologies which could render the F111-X a less formidable foe.
what I meant in regards to the stealth capabilities is that all NEW developments that come out of the likes of Boeing and LM are stealthy or at least have a low radar signature.
Even if we took all the drawings of the fuselage, you'd still be left to create 10's or 100's of thousands (millions?) of new drawings to include the new avionics, engine, probably redesign the gear because it really doesn't need a gear that can sustain a carrier landing, which would then probably give some room for an extra equipment bay, fuel tank or even bomb storage... so your not talking a simple "plug and play" scenario, hence major expense and time would be required to develop a new aircraft from an existing airframe design.
Now if the market (Aust and Allies) dictates the need for a stealthy aircraft, you'd still be delivering an aircraft with all the bells and whistles in an old airframe that the market most likely not want.
Money well spent? Probably not, and that's why it hasn't been redeveloped.
And don't forget that when the new F111-X is finally ready for mass production our potential foes will, at the very least, be in the processed of adapting new radar, missile and stealth technologies which could render the F111-X a less formidable foe.
I've heard before that the F-111 has not Vne, it's only limited by skin temp. Now thats frickin awesome.
On a side note, is there any real reason (aside from pi**ing off Uncle Sam) that Aus hasn't considered any of the new Sukkhois themselves... the SU34 is one mean looking aircraft...
On a side note, is there any real reason (aside from pi**ing off Uncle Sam) that Aus hasn't considered any of the new Sukkhois themselves... the SU34 is one mean looking aircraft...
On a side note, is there any real reason (aside from pi**ing off Uncle Sam) that Aus hasn't considered any of the new Sukkhois themselves... the SU34 is one mean looking aircraft...
However it goes back to the argument of having an integrated defence system, and when you want to integrate with your allies you use a common network infrastructure
Another argument could be if your opponents use the same platform as you, then they will be a lot more aware of your capabilities, limitations (read: weaknesses) as opposed to gear they cannot get their hands on.
[SIDE NOTE: Interestingly this was my 111th post
]
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On a side note, is there any real reason (aside from pi**ing off Uncle Sam) that Aus hasn't considered any of the new Sukkhois themselves... the SU34 is one mean looking aircraft...
Bah! The F-111 is an underperforming trainer compared to
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_Electric_Lightning
As for a civvy version,
http://www.thundercity.com/sortie.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_Electric_Lightning
As for a civvy version,
http://www.thundercity.com/sortie.htm
Last edited by Trojan1981; 21st Nov 2007 at 04:14. Reason: Link
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We've had this convo before but the recent 4 Corners programme got me going again. 
There was the distinct ring of rational truth in it.
Can the gazzilion dollar wet dream, spend the money on some more FIII airframes and upgrades and get 3/4 gazzillion change and a brilliant multirole aircraft, who needs to stay and fight when you can run. Buy a bunch of the new Sukhois, is all we need for the foreseeable and we still have over 1/2 gazillion dollars change. Tell Kaman where to put their vintage helos and replace them with something that actually works.
And then we have enough money to fix the medical system for good 'n all and renew the derelict infrastructure around the country and we still got maybe 1/4 gazzillion dollars change. Boeing might not like it but hey as they say, tell it to the Marines.
There was the distinct ring of rational truth in it.Can the gazzilion dollar wet dream, spend the money on some more FIII airframes and upgrades and get 3/4 gazzillion change and a brilliant multirole aircraft, who needs to stay and fight when you can run. Buy a bunch of the new Sukhois, is all we need for the foreseeable and we still have over 1/2 gazillion dollars change. Tell Kaman where to put their vintage helos
and replace them with something that actually works.And then we have enough money to fix the medical system for good 'n all and renew the derelict infrastructure around the country and we still got maybe 1/4 gazzillion dollars change. Boeing might not like it but hey as they say, tell it to the Marines.
