V Australia-Tell me it aint true! (Merged Thread)
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I know for sure that one of the other guys that applied for the position was the 777 training manager at EK for 5 years, with 12 years Chk and Tng on type, AND AN AUSSIE!!!!
I have to agree with the rather jaded comments others have already made that I think we can all expect to be hearing quite a few exotic, if southern hemisphere accents from VOz aircraft and will all have to get used to hearing "Itzapleaaassssure" over the radio.
Last edited by Wiley; 11th Nov 2007 at 07:47.
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Why so surprised? There has been no shortage of posts explaining this very fact of life here on prune.
There is NO shortage of cheap overseas labour willing to come and do what you guys think you will soon be paid more to do.
VOz will be a yarpy flying club soon where they toast each other, disassembled rape-cages and the dumb aussies whom they one-upped.
There is NO shortage of cheap overseas labour willing to come and do what you guys think you will soon be paid more to do.
VOz will be a yarpy flying club soon where they toast each other, disassembled rape-cages and the dumb aussies whom they one-upped.
Thread Starter
Simply unbelievable. Pilots should be renamed (or is that named) whores for a better discription of the profession.
Supply and demand, shortage blah, blah, blah.
When will the penny finally drop with some blokes?
Supply and demand, shortage blah, blah, blah.
When will the penny finally drop with some blokes?
With reference to the Ryanair/european ops and the pay they offer- I think "DJ737" you may have missed the point.
The point being what chance do "V Australia" have to attract 777 Captains when the Virgin group cannot pay their 737 Captains what they are worth on the world stage, lets face it VOz are appealing to the world market to supply them with Captains for the 777 Ops.
Compounding this, who would pay for a type rating to fly for this mob(V Oz) when the parent Co(V.B) are doing so well.
New recruits to VB were told 2000/2001 they had to pay for their own 737 rating as they were a start up Co and did not have the resources or the money to pay for new employees ratings, that is not the case now.
It is as obvious as the nose on my face, if the Virgin group wish to start a succesful international operation they need do do things properly.
Not the usual half arsed,cheap as chips approach we are all used to.
Case in point is the debacle of new drivers for the E-Jet. The Co could not even pay them enough allowances to cover their cost of living whilst O.S etc,etc,etc
The point being what chance do "V Australia" have to attract 777 Captains when the Virgin group cannot pay their 737 Captains what they are worth on the world stage, lets face it VOz are appealing to the world market to supply them with Captains for the 777 Ops.
Compounding this, who would pay for a type rating to fly for this mob(V Oz) when the parent Co(V.B) are doing so well.
New recruits to VB were told 2000/2001 they had to pay for their own 737 rating as they were a start up Co and did not have the resources or the money to pay for new employees ratings, that is not the case now.
It is as obvious as the nose on my face, if the Virgin group wish to start a succesful international operation they need do do things properly.
Not the usual half arsed,cheap as chips approach we are all used to.
Case in point is the debacle of new drivers for the E-Jet. The Co could not even pay them enough allowances to cover their cost of living whilst O.S etc,etc,etc
Adjusted for inflation, the 150K mark is about right.
In 01 John's Merry Men repatriated to Oz and were payed 100K as Virgin Blue training captains. Actually, I don't even think they were on retainers whilst the AOC was delayed.
So, an aviation cycle on, and Virgin is paying training captains less than the F/O's of the incumbent competition ( QF ).
Trailer trash.........
In 01 John's Merry Men repatriated to Oz and were payed 100K as Virgin Blue training captains. Actually, I don't even think they were on retainers whilst the AOC was delayed.
So, an aviation cycle on, and Virgin is paying training captains less than the F/O's of the incumbent competition ( QF ).
Trailer trash.........
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Hi all,
Well, I know of a quite a number of Boeing Captains in South Africa that earn less than Aus$100k/year.
Combine that with conditions in their country, and you'll find that there are many that will jump at this job.
They are busy doing the ATPL conversion and will be sharing cost for the 777 sim.
Come interview time, these guys will be licensed and rated.
Back to the man who's running the training at VA, yes he IS that capable and good. One of the best in the business.
Amazing, I don't hear any complaints about all the SAFA Doctors, nurses, engineers, vets etc. etc. keeping good old Oz running. Now you're complaining about pilots!
Well, I know of a quite a number of Boeing Captains in South Africa that earn less than Aus$100k/year.
Combine that with conditions in their country, and you'll find that there are many that will jump at this job.
They are busy doing the ATPL conversion and will be sharing cost for the 777 sim.
Come interview time, these guys will be licensed and rated.
Back to the man who's running the training at VA, yes he IS that capable and good. One of the best in the business.
Amazing, I don't hear any complaints about all the SAFA Doctors, nurses, engineers, vets etc. etc. keeping good old Oz running. Now you're complaining about pilots!
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Happy to be corrected and certainly aware we are more liberal than most countries but don't persons who wish to reside in Oz STILL have to apply, be processed and eventuall approved (or not)???
All the talk here makes it sound like anyone will be allowed to stroll in with no questions asked.
On another topic like it or not Placido is 100% right - if people perceive it as an improvement/step up they will move countries and take positions.
You only have to look at the contract world to see that in the last few years the South Americans are greater in numbers as well as other nationalities.
It would appear that, in the case of V international it will be the Yarpies who will benefit (subject to regulatory approval!)
Of course for the Yarpies it will be like a nice lottle win on the pokies; V International, in keeping the salaries soooooo low, will literally have won the mega draw in tattslotto.
Gotta hand it to VB management - whether by good management or plain old dumb luck, with the pilots agreement over the line by 3% and now possibly (probably?) driving down the pilot salaries for V Int. they are doing very nicely thank you very much.
However I have no doubt it is really the "duck" syndrome - on the surface all calm, below the surface paddling like buggery!
All the talk here makes it sound like anyone will be allowed to stroll in with no questions asked.
On another topic like it or not Placido is 100% right - if people perceive it as an improvement/step up they will move countries and take positions.
You only have to look at the contract world to see that in the last few years the South Americans are greater in numbers as well as other nationalities.
It would appear that, in the case of V international it will be the Yarpies who will benefit (subject to regulatory approval!)
Of course for the Yarpies it will be like a nice lottle win on the pokies; V International, in keeping the salaries soooooo low, will literally have won the mega draw in tattslotto.
Gotta hand it to VB management - whether by good management or plain old dumb luck, with the pilots agreement over the line by 3% and now possibly (probably?) driving down the pilot salaries for V Int. they are doing very nicely thank you very much.
However I have no doubt it is really the "duck" syndrome - on the surface all calm, below the surface paddling like buggery!
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I disagrree with the wisdom of VB management should they take the path of payling appalling salaries.
Right now they are deeply distressed about being able to man VB flights, due to the aircrew shortage and attrition.
This was all brought about because they insisted on such cheapness in the operation (from pilots paying for their own ratings to paying well below QF salaries). Whilst some were just happy to be 'home' this quickly subsided into a simmering resentment. Now pilots leave for Emirates etc at a quickening pace. That carriers' recent orders for so many new aircraft will not help VB's situation.
So if they do pay peanuts and insist on type-ratings or sub A$250k salaries for Captains, they may make it work initially but will just be creating another longer-term disater for themselves.
I hope they are sensible this time round - time will tell.
Right now they are deeply distressed about being able to man VB flights, due to the aircrew shortage and attrition.
This was all brought about because they insisted on such cheapness in the operation (from pilots paying for their own ratings to paying well below QF salaries). Whilst some were just happy to be 'home' this quickly subsided into a simmering resentment. Now pilots leave for Emirates etc at a quickening pace. That carriers' recent orders for so many new aircraft will not help VB's situation.
So if they do pay peanuts and insist on type-ratings or sub A$250k salaries for Captains, they may make it work initially but will just be creating another longer-term disater for themselves.
I hope they are sensible this time round - time will tell.
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Placido
No one on this thread is denying that the pilots that would come from south africa are experianced and capable operators. I fly with a number of SAFA pilots at my current company and their all good guys with a lot of knowledge and skill. My point is simply Australia is surpose to be a country of well developed industrial policies and laws geared towards maintaining a resonable balance between capital and labour. No one can deny that in recent years that balance has unashamedly been allowed to favour Australian companies and their agendas. It isn't right or fair that these companies that still enjoy the protections offered by these policies should be allowed to circumvent them when they don't work in their favour.
It wasn't that long ago that Qantas cried all the way to the government and the ACCC when Emirates and Singapore Airlines applied for the right to carry passengers on the Kangaroo route. they claimed it was unfair on Australian operators to have to compete against overseas carriers, as they had to pay Australian workers in accordance with Australian Awards, and these overseas carriers wouldn't (even thou these overseas carriers offer better pay and benifits than Ozzy operators do). Now these same Australian companies want to deny Ozzy pilots the same consideration and protection they enjoy by being allowed to bring in cheaper overseas pilots to crew their aircraft without any oversight from unions, the ACCC or the government.
We allow SAFA doctors, engineers and nurses into australia as there is a genuine shortage of skilled labour in these fields, even after the government and private sector increased pay and working conditions, even offering government grants for people to attend university. This is not the case in the aviation sector. We have more than enough Australian pilots to fill all of the current vacancies, the differance here is that now most ozzy pilots want to be resonable compensated to do so. If Voz were to offer a competitive package of T & C for 777 pilots today, i have no doubt that they would have 1 000+ applications from ozzy pilots with heavy jet experiance tomorrow. But they don't want to, even though they can afford to. Australian Airlines are amongst some of the most profitable airlines in the world. The problem is they wont to continue on with business as usual at the expense of the people who make it happen.
The Australian government should only allow an Australian company to bring in overseas labour when that company can clearly demonstraight that they are unable to fill those positions with australian citizans, even after offering a competitive industry standard wage. This is not the case here. Here Voz want to import foreign labour to avoid paying an acceptable industry standard wage.
So placido, while your point is valid, it has no bearing on the issue this tread seeks to address. As i know for a fact if the tables were turned, there is no way on god's green earth that the SA government would ever let Aussie expat pilots come over to Africa and take South African jobs.
All Ozzy pilots are asking of Voz is to allow the door to swing both ways.
Anyway, that's just my opinion.
Monster.
It wasn't that long ago that Qantas cried all the way to the government and the ACCC when Emirates and Singapore Airlines applied for the right to carry passengers on the Kangaroo route. they claimed it was unfair on Australian operators to have to compete against overseas carriers, as they had to pay Australian workers in accordance with Australian Awards, and these overseas carriers wouldn't (even thou these overseas carriers offer better pay and benifits than Ozzy operators do). Now these same Australian companies want to deny Ozzy pilots the same consideration and protection they enjoy by being allowed to bring in cheaper overseas pilots to crew their aircraft without any oversight from unions, the ACCC or the government.
We allow SAFA doctors, engineers and nurses into australia as there is a genuine shortage of skilled labour in these fields, even after the government and private sector increased pay and working conditions, even offering government grants for people to attend university. This is not the case in the aviation sector. We have more than enough Australian pilots to fill all of the current vacancies, the differance here is that now most ozzy pilots want to be resonable compensated to do so. If Voz were to offer a competitive package of T & C for 777 pilots today, i have no doubt that they would have 1 000+ applications from ozzy pilots with heavy jet experiance tomorrow. But they don't want to, even though they can afford to. Australian Airlines are amongst some of the most profitable airlines in the world. The problem is they wont to continue on with business as usual at the expense of the people who make it happen.
The Australian government should only allow an Australian company to bring in overseas labour when that company can clearly demonstraight that they are unable to fill those positions with australian citizans, even after offering a competitive industry standard wage. This is not the case here. Here Voz want to import foreign labour to avoid paying an acceptable industry standard wage.
So placido, while your point is valid, it has no bearing on the issue this tread seeks to address. As i know for a fact if the tables were turned, there is no way on god's green earth that the SA government would ever let Aussie expat pilots come over to Africa and take South African jobs.
All Ozzy pilots are asking of Voz is to allow the door to swing both ways.
Anyway, that's just my opinion.
Monster.
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With the industry in its current condition we as pilots are in a strong position to negotiate terms.
Don't accept crappy pay-for-type offers.
The terms will go up, or planes will park up. If they manage to somehow recruit cheap overseas labour, then
em. We'll go overseas also, to where airlines are directly competing against eachother for the BEST crew, not the cheapest. And these aussie operators will begin to get the dodgy reputation they will deserve.
Apply to VAus, select No to answer the question re: paying for endorsement. The more of us that do this the better.
Rock this boat we will.
Buddha
Don't accept crappy pay-for-type offers.
The terms will go up, or planes will park up. If they manage to somehow recruit cheap overseas labour, then
em. We'll go overseas also, to where airlines are directly competing against eachother for the BEST crew, not the cheapest. And these aussie operators will begin to get the dodgy reputation they will deserve.Apply to VAus, select No to answer the question re: paying for endorsement. The more of us that do this the better.
Rock this boat we will.
Buddha
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Not wrong monster - sought employment years ago in Sith Effrica (early 90's) not a chance as an Oz passort holder - unless I could do something that no other South African could do.
Fortunately being Aussie there are a great number of things I can do that they can't
But that's not the point
Fortunately being Aussie there are a great number of things I can do that they can't
But that's not the point
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Well, you are all where you are today because of 89'.
So you know who to blame, don't you?
And you also know what to do to correct the situation, don't you?
But you wont do it, will you?
So you know who to blame, don't you?
And you also know what to do to correct the situation, don't you?
But you wont do it, will you?
Well, one thing about the SA drivers, they sure know how to get on the p1ss - just before they get on the ship with wings. Seen that a few times. 