Merged:A couple of prangs in Sth Island.
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A couple of questions... how in the first place is someone rated as a 'top pilot'? Why is such a 'top pilot' trying to land a plane with a 20 knot tailwind, or more to the point doing iti in such a way that they go off the end of a 1,000 metre runway?
Surely the other pilot wasn't his instructor?
Surely the other pilot wasn't his instructor?
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PILOK!
empacher48 Quote:
Strong winds in a mountainous region...
Isn't a problem if you know what you are doing. (From someone who does this on a daily basis around mountains - come on the Ureweras are barely 5000' high, they're foot-hills!! Plus I do it with paying passengers!!).
I guess you can compare the Power and Wing loading of a C152 to what ever you pole about with punters!
At 27 you are no doubt a mountain ACE?
The poor lass was 21, with 500 Hrs, so if lucky she had 300 hrs Commercial Ops:
SOME of us are LUCKY enough to LIVE through occassions when we realise we could have done something better! Unfortunately WE all have to start somewhere, and it is to a large degree, how lucky we are that gives us experience.
It was not the Wee Lass's day.
To her mates and students, and to her operator, my heartfelt sympathy.
H/Snort
Strong winds in a mountainous region...
Isn't a problem if you know what you are doing. (From someone who does this on a daily basis around mountains - come on the Ureweras are barely 5000' high, they're foot-hills!! Plus I do it with paying passengers!!).
I guess you can compare the Power and Wing loading of a C152 to what ever you pole about with punters!
At 27 you are no doubt a mountain ACE?
The poor lass was 21, with 500 Hrs, so if lucky she had 300 hrs Commercial Ops:
SOME of us are LUCKY enough to LIVE through occassions when we realise we could have done something better! Unfortunately WE all have to start somewhere, and it is to a large degree, how lucky we are that gives us experience.
It was not the Wee Lass's day.
To her mates and students, and to her operator, my heartfelt sympathy.
H/Snort
Thread Starter
I'd been thinking about this and wondered why you wouldn't notice a significantly increased groundspeed to normal on finals (with a 20kn tailwind) but if Plucka is correct and it was an [intentional] flapless landing then I suppose their situational awareness may have got out of kilter.
I'm always hesitant to criticise since I'm sure as hell not perfect myself. I can recall three recent tailwind landings I've done - once to conform to a local operators circuit pattern and twice when the wind changed on the downwind and I didn't notice the windsock swing on finals. Whilst I'm talking just two or three knots here (I'd like to think I'd notice twenty!) it's something that can easily happen. After these landings I'd told myself to make a final check of a windsock but I don't always remember 'cos I'm concentrating on what's going on ahead of me and if it's a field where the 'socks are not within my normal field of vision on final then I'm not visually prompted to do so. I don't recall ever being taught to make such a check so it's not ingrained within my flying psyche but if something is to be taken from this then perhaps it would be a good training safety check to make and one that might have caused these guys somewhat less distress.
Perhaps this incident also indicates a need for more emphasis on go-around training, judging just when to know you're not going to make it and exactly what to do. I can well recall my EFATO training & other such things but once again I don't remember a great deal of emphasis on the go-around and there certainly is a bit of get-down-itis once you're established on finals so to break that mode of thinking takes some discipline.
All this is said, I might add, to prompt some debate on things that are worth thinking about - with respect to the particular incident it's possible we might find they had engine failure at an awkward stage and didn't have much choice in the matter, this might explain not powering up to go-round... if that's the case then it wasn't a complete botch-up, after all they survived quite well, but then again someone might have a bit more info?
Finally I was very saddened to hear of the BOP accident. It only serves to remind us of the frailty of our craft and ourselves. Whether or not there is ultimately something to be learned from it will always be overshadowed by the loss of a young compatriot.
I'm always hesitant to criticise since I'm sure as hell not perfect myself. I can recall three recent tailwind landings I've done - once to conform to a local operators circuit pattern and twice when the wind changed on the downwind and I didn't notice the windsock swing on finals. Whilst I'm talking just two or three knots here (I'd like to think I'd notice twenty!) it's something that can easily happen. After these landings I'd told myself to make a final check of a windsock but I don't always remember 'cos I'm concentrating on what's going on ahead of me and if it's a field where the 'socks are not within my normal field of vision on final then I'm not visually prompted to do so. I don't recall ever being taught to make such a check so it's not ingrained within my flying psyche but if something is to be taken from this then perhaps it would be a good training safety check to make and one that might have caused these guys somewhat less distress.
Perhaps this incident also indicates a need for more emphasis on go-around training, judging just when to know you're not going to make it and exactly what to do. I can well recall my EFATO training & other such things but once again I don't remember a great deal of emphasis on the go-around and there certainly is a bit of get-down-itis once you're established on finals so to break that mode of thinking takes some discipline.
All this is said, I might add, to prompt some debate on things that are worth thinking about - with respect to the particular incident it's possible we might find they had engine failure at an awkward stage and didn't have much choice in the matter, this might explain not powering up to go-round... if that's the case then it wasn't a complete botch-up, after all they survived quite well, but then again someone might have a bit more info?
Finally I was very saddened to hear of the BOP accident. It only serves to remind us of the frailty of our craft and ourselves. Whether or not there is ultimately something to be learned from it will always be overshadowed by the loss of a young compatriot.
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I did not see the accident but I wouldn't call the information I have shared here hearsay either, more an accurate account from a very experienced witness firsthand. I didn't mean to imply that they did not add power for their attempted 'go around'. They previously set up on finals for 07 before over shooting that runway, it may of been the fact that a retired airline pilot was holding at 30 (the into wind runway) informed them that they were downwind, as he also did when they approached on 12. Wouldnt you think if you were on finals and there was an aircraft waiting at the other end of the runway to takeoff that alarm bells would start to ring.
I am not blameing the students entirely or their nationality but I do suggest their instructors should have red faces.
When I learnt to fly I was taught that if your chosen landing SPOT goes under the nose and you are not in the landing configuration i.e. low and slow then you go around. With experience you learn to tell earlier and earlier in the approach if you are going to make the SPOT. Notice SPOT not give ot take 300m.
recently we have seen two airliners do the same thing as these two blokes did, land fast and long, due it would seem, to poor weather decisions.
'Finally I was very saddened to hear of the BOP accident. It only serves to remind us of the frailty of our craft and ourselves. Whether or not there is ultimately something to be learned from it will always be overshadowed by the loss of a young compatriot.'
well said.
I am not blameing the students entirely or their nationality but I do suggest their instructors should have red faces.
When I learnt to fly I was taught that if your chosen landing SPOT goes under the nose and you are not in the landing configuration i.e. low and slow then you go around. With experience you learn to tell earlier and earlier in the approach if you are going to make the SPOT. Notice SPOT not give ot take 300m.
recently we have seen two airliners do the same thing as these two blokes did, land fast and long, due it would seem, to poor weather decisions.
'Finally I was very saddened to hear of the BOP accident. It only serves to remind us of the frailty of our craft and ourselves. Whether or not there is ultimately something to be learned from it will always be overshadowed by the loss of a young compatriot.'
well said.
Last edited by plucka; 27th Oct 2007 at 22:11.
empacher48
"Isn't a problem if you know what you are doing. (From someone who does this on a daily basis around mountains - come on the Ureweras are barely 5000' high, they're foot-hills!! Plus I do it with paying passengers!!)."
With comments like the above you sound like the normal young ZQN based expert i.e. a twit (I know lots of ZQN based pilots, the older ones who have been flying in your area for decades and are the experts and dont proclaim to be "mountain flying experts")
Flying in Mountain Terrain has nothing to do with the size of your Knobs!
The Urewera, Kaimanawa, Ruahine ranges are some of most rugged mountainous ranges in the country. In over 30 years of GA part 91 and 135 operations in North and South Island, two of my three worst turbs have been in the middle of the North Island, and once at the back of the Benmore range in the South Island. The Southern Alps are a walk in the park compared to trying to navigate the Kaimanawa Ranges in a good westerly!
The Lower South Island tends to have higher hills, bigger valleys and stronger winds, however for total utter violence the Kaweka, Ruahine, Kaikoura and Tasman ranges are the tops.
"Isn't a problem if you know what you are doing. (From someone who does this on a daily basis around mountains - come on the Ureweras are barely 5000' high, they're foot-hills!! Plus I do it with paying passengers!!)."
With comments like the above you sound like the normal young ZQN based expert i.e. a twit (I know lots of ZQN based pilots, the older ones who have been flying in your area for decades and are the experts and dont proclaim to be "mountain flying experts")
Flying in Mountain Terrain has nothing to do with the size of your Knobs!
The Urewera, Kaimanawa, Ruahine ranges are some of most rugged mountainous ranges in the country. In over 30 years of GA part 91 and 135 operations in North and South Island, two of my three worst turbs have been in the middle of the North Island, and once at the back of the Benmore range in the South Island. The Southern Alps are a walk in the park compared to trying to navigate the Kaimanawa Ranges in a good westerly!
The Lower South Island tends to have higher hills, bigger valleys and stronger winds, however for total utter violence the Kaweka, Ruahine, Kaikoura and Tasman ranges are the tops.
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The Urewera, Kaimanawa, Ruahine ranges are some of most rugged mountainous ranges in the country. In over 30 years of GA part 91 and 135 operations in North and South Island, two of my three worst turbs have been in the middle of the North Island, and once at the back of the Benmore range in the South Island. The Southern Alps are a walk in the park compared to trying to navigate the Kaimanawa Ranges in a good westerly!
The Lower South Island tends to have higher hills, bigger valleys and stronger winds, however for total utter violence the Kaweka, Ruahine, Kaikoura and Tasman ranges are the tops.
LP
Cypher...dig your icons.correct me if I'm wrong but all 3 below mentioned ranges have alternative routes. Why battle turbulence in an under powered aircraft when there are alternative options? What happened to situational awareness? If you are going to fly marginal routes in adverse conditions and not carry enough altitude nor performance, why not find another way?
Well, what a reaction, and to be honest not one I was expecting. I do realise that sometimes reasonable discussion can turn into name calling and self-ego-inflation, and I am sorry there is a lot of resentment held out there by people who don't fly in Queenstown and it may have to come out in the ways we have seen. But besides the odd charter I have never flown down there, and never had the inclination to either.
I never said in my first post that I was a mountain flying expert (or ace or whatever I have been refered as). By refering to the height of the Ureweras, I was meaning that most light aircraft would have the ability to fly over the top of them. When I was taught the fly in mountains over 10 years ago (yes I learned to fly in the southern alps, and still remember the first trip to 13,000' in a Pa28-140), I was told always have an alternative route or escape plan, the wind speed is only just more important than the direction, and the VSI is the most important instrument in the cockpit followed by the ASI.
Let the abuse continue....
I never said in my first post that I was a mountain flying expert (or ace or whatever I have been refered as). By refering to the height of the Ureweras, I was meaning that most light aircraft would have the ability to fly over the top of them. When I was taught the fly in mountains over 10 years ago (yes I learned to fly in the southern alps, and still remember the first trip to 13,000' in a Pa28-140), I was told always have an alternative route or escape plan, the wind speed is only just more important than the direction, and the VSI is the most important instrument in the cockpit followed by the ASI.
Let the abuse continue....
Empacher please don't miscontrue my appreciation of cyphers icons for anything other than face value. I have have always remained neutral. Indeed you are the first to mention alternative route and escape options. That's what I was getting at and fully support your comments.
In that case cheers my brutha from anutha mutha! The bourbon is sweet and the Air Pac hosties are sweeter! Join me at the vuda yacht club any time!
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empacher48 - I totally agree with what you said and I don't think you sounded like a tosser!
Had a near-death experience through those ranges myself (well... it felt like it at the time) - brand new PPL, no experience, no fricken idea basically, told to fly through there by my instructor "on a nice clear day so that if you ever get stuck due to weather you can find your way through on a crap day..."
Westerly 25-35 kts... like I said... no idea. To date and 500 hours later have not experienced turbulence like it.
Tis very very sad. RIP.
Had a near-death experience through those ranges myself (well... it felt like it at the time) - brand new PPL, no experience, no fricken idea basically, told to fly through there by my instructor "on a nice clear day so that if you ever get stuck due to weather you can find your way through on a crap day..."
Westerly 25-35 kts... like I said... no idea. To date and 500 hours later have not experienced turbulence like it.
Tis very very sad. RIP.
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Does anyone know what the Rego of the 152 was?
I therefore assume it was ZK-KID which is registered to Bayflight International. (ex ZK-ETV)
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Abuse:
empacher48 Let the abuse continue....
You will give yourself tennis elbow there lad, favouring abuse like that:
kiwi chick empacher48 - I totally agree with what you said and I don't think you sounded like a tosser!
I do
No doubt in another 10-15000 hrs you will look back and realise a few things, hope you survive it my friend.
The point is even having an out is not a guarantee that you will survive the out manouver, its knowing "when to use the manouver before you need it" that counts in my book.
H/Snort
You will give yourself tennis elbow there lad, favouring abuse like that:
kiwi chick empacher48 - I totally agree with what you said and I don't think you sounded like a tosser!
I do
No doubt in another 10-15000 hrs you will look back and realise a few things, hope you survive it my friend.
The point is even having an out is not a guarantee that you will survive the out manouver, its knowing "when to use the manouver before you need it" that counts in my book.
H/Snort